Balrog and The One Ring

[Kuruharan]

I don't agree with the idea that Balrogs were mere subservient elemental manifestations with no will of their own, unable to deviate from the programming devised by Morgoth, or were incapable of independent action. How would the Balrog of Moria have fled in the first place if it had no independent will? I think the impression of "roboticness" on the part of the Balrogs is mostly a result of the comparative abstractness of the Sil, where only a select few personalities are explored in detail, and the fact that the Balrog of Moria never spoke in its confrontation with Gandalf.

All of Morgoth's servants we come into detailed contact with have at least some degree of free will. Why would Balrogs differ in this regard?

Clearly, to a large extent the motivations of the Balrog of Moria were different from the norm of Evil, but it was operating on incomplete information.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I wonder the extent to which a Balrog might have recognised Sauron's authority. One would assume that in the First Age, during the times in which Sauron had command (such as when he was in Angband while Melkor was in Valinor, or when Morgoth went forth to spy on Men) he must have had authority over the Balrogs, even Gothmog, who was perhaps only one step below him in the chain of command. If Morgoth was defeated, killed and expelled into the Void, however, and Sauron was now pursuing his own ambition of conquering Middle-earth, might a Balrog recognise this and no longer perceive Sauron as its superior?

I agree with Zigûr.

How legitimate would the Balrog have viewed Sauron as being the proxy for Morgoth? Especially since the Balrog would know that Sauron was lying about being Morgoth Returned and could not possibly be taken in by this deceit. Also note, Sauron abandoned his service to Morgoth before the end of the First Age, presumably vacating his place as Morgoth's chief lieutenant. The Balrog would undoubtedly be aware of this betrayal. Why would the Balrog respect Sauron as Morgoth's proxy in light of these things?

The other question that has not been touched on in this thread yet is "Could the Balrog have mastered the Ring?"

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The other question that has not been touched on in this thread yet is "Could the Balrog have mastered the Ring?"

If by master, you mean having the ability to withhold the Ring from Sauron in his despite (as described in a Letter by Tolkien as being a measure of one's 'mastery' of the Ring), I would say it's a toss-up. Tolkien envisaged Gandalf as being able to do so. The Balrog seemingly had not exhausted, as had Sauron, much of its will and spirit in the dominion of others. Then the question again turns to what a Balrog with the Ring would do. Try in some one to enable Morgoth's return? Impossible. Force Sauron and the forces of Mordor to serve it, essentially replacing Sauron? If that, doesn't the Ring win after all?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If that, doesn't the Ring win after all?

The Ring always wins unless it is destroyed.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If by master, you mean having the ability to withhold the Ring from Sauron in his despite (as described in a Letter by Tolkien as being a measure of one's 'mastery' of the Ring), I would say it's a toss-up. Tolkien envisaged Gandalf as being able to do so. The Balrog seemingly had not exhausted, as had Sauron, much of its will and spirit in the dominion of others. Then the question again turns to what a Balrog with the Ring would do. Try in some one to enable Morgoth's return? Impossible. Force Sauron and the forces of Mordor to serve it, essentially replacing Sauron? If that, doesn't the Ring win after all?

Again, Morgoth's return isn't impossible, as Tolkien said that was how Arda Marred would eventually come to an end, and Arda Unmarred would come to be:

Morgoth would return from the Void, crossing over the Walls of the Night.

MB

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

Again, Morgoth's return isn't impossible, as Tolkien said that was how Arda Marred would eventually come to an end, and Arda Unmarred would come to be:

Morgoth would return from the Void, crossing over the Walls of the Night.

I'm aware of the Second Prophecy, but my point was that the Balrog couldn't have pulled it off, Ring or no.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm aware of the Second Prophecy, but my point was that the Balrog couldn't have pulled it off, Ring or no.

Yes... Quite likely.

But.... Does that mean he would not try?

As I already indicated... I don't think the Balrog would have left Moria, even if it possessed the One Ring.

But then that damned Ring of Sauron's seems to be the source of so much contention and strife. And not just in Middle-earth. It seems that even in our world the One Ring is the source of a sizable amount of strife and conflict among wound-be allies.

MB

[Faramir Jones]

From what we have been told, the Balrogs were Maiar, like Sauron, and were also corrupted by Morgoth.

It's possible the Balrog in question might have had a chance against Sauron. While I don't have his Letters to hand, I recall Tolkien saying that the only being who had a chance to defeat Sauron in personal combat while using the One Ring was a Maia, Gandalf. Might that Balrog, also a former Maia, have a similar chance?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

It's possible the Balrog in question might have had a chance against Sauron. While I don't have his Letters to hand, I recall Tolkien saying that the only being who had a chance to defeat Sauron in personal combat while using the One Ring was a Maia, Gandalf. Might that Balrog, also a former Maia, have a similar chance?

I think so.

There are a number of parallels between the Gandalf vs. Sauron question and Balrog vs. Sauron. In both contests the Ring would still be a part of Sauron and attempting to get back to him. However, Sauron had spent much of himself and was greatly diminished from his former power whereas Gandalf and the Balrog were not.

The biggest difference being that Gandalf and the Balrog did face off and Gandalf won that one, so perhaps the Balrog was not quite on that level.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't agree with the idea that Balrogs were mere subservient elemental manifestations with no will of their own, unable to deviate from the programming devised by Morgoth, or were incapable of independent action.

Good, because no one has argued that.


MB