Eldarin kingship and succession

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I don't think it matters that the purpose of Sauron was to remove the disguise and that of Finrod to maintain it. Had Sauron tried to remove the disguises physically and force them off, surely that would have been seen as a fight, albiet hand to hand. Rather in this case it was a fight "which is renowned" where "Felagund fought, and all the magic and might he brought of Elfinesse into his words." So I would say that they did indeed fight, but not physically, rather magically.

I'm not contesting any of that. And I also did not say that women in Tolkien's work aren't allowed to fight. The problem with this special fight is that we have to apply some interpretation to understand what was 'really going on' because the whole event is told is a highly symbolic and poetic mode. I mean, pretty much everybody realizes that this singing contest would have been over at once if Sauron had actually heard Finrod singing about the stuff he apparently mentioned in his song because that would have revealed that he was an Elf (or Noldo from beyond the sea).

But it is said that Sauron only realized what species they were after he had won the contest, and even then could not uncover their personal identity. Something doesn't add up here if you interpret the whole thing literally.

And Finrod later (and earlier) also shows he is a true hero in the male sense because he dies heroically in the fight against the werewolf whom he kills with his bare hands and teeth. No woman in Tolkien's would have ever done such a thing.

Otherwise I do agree with you, that in Tolkien's world, the Men are generally the rulers over their people, but there are examples where women like Haleth the leader of the Haladin, or Ancalimë of the Dúnedain hold sway. But we must keep in mind that with the Elves there is not much seperation between men and women in power or physical ability as portrayed in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar. I think that Galadriel, like Melian, were the powers behind the throne, although in the case of Galadriel and Celeborn they did not have the titles queen or king.

The differences I mention and talk about about gender roles, not physical (or mental) strength. It is quite clear that Galadriel, Lúthien, or Melian are more powerful than their respective husbands.

But this doesn't mean that such women actually could (or should) transform that personal power into political power. Melian is Thingol's wife and adviser, she does not co-rule Doriath at his side and she does not ultimately make any decisions (that is pretty evident when Thingol decides to ignore his wife and demand the Silmaril as bride price, or when it is Thingol - and Thingol alone! - who sits in judgment over Túrin following the death of Saeros).

I see Galadriel and Celeborn as a (lesser) mirror image of Melian and Thingol. The wife is stronger but Celeborn is still the man and thus in charge by default. This does not mean that things might not be different behind closed doors and in private but publicly Celeborn is the one in charge. And Galadriel would most likely cause a scandal or ruin both her own reputation and authority as well as her husband's if she ever publicly questioned his decisions or contradicted him.

Regardless of her own personal power and influence behind the scene Galadriel is still nothing but a supplementary adviser to the real heroes of the story in LotR. She doesn't do anything but give the actual male heroes some counsel. It was a conscious decision on Tolkien's part to have only men in the fellowship.

And it is also clear that Tolkien was uncomfortable with his own version of a more active Galadriel who was a leader among the rebelling Noldor. His final version of her was that of a completely innocent (and holy) woman from the start who only accidentally came under the ban of the Valar. And both Celeborn and Celebrimbor were Falmari elves in that version, suggesting that Tolkien's final version of Celeborn also had him having nearly as much personal power as Celeborn could possibly have without being reinvented as an exiled Noldo himself.

And if take this whole thing back on track - the question of Eldarin kingship - then I see no problem in the fact that Galadriel never was the high-queen of the Noldor both because of her gender as well as, presumably a more important reason, the fact that she was of the youngest branch of Finarfin whereas Gil-galad, son of Orodreth, son of Angrod was of the elder branch. Galadriel was the youngest child of Finarfin, after all.

The lack of a high-kingship of the Noldor after the Second Age is no surprise. Even Lindon lacks a king after Gil-galad's death, and so does Lórien after Amroth's departure.

If Eärendil/Elrond already gave up their claims to the high-kingship back in the First Age then there is little reason to assume the title would revert back to the descendants of Fingolfin in the Third Age. Maedhros and his brothers also apparently could not demand the high-kingship back after the deaths of Fingolfin, Fingon, and Turgon.

[Galin]

For me Tolkien's "final" version of Galadriel and Celeborn is what he himself decided to publish about the two. He can tinker all he wants in his private papers, some of which are so adumbrated they needed to be paraphrased by Christopher Tolkien, but was he really going to step on this history, already in print (thus already thought of as internally true to his readership), creating another arguably notable Galadriel-related inconsistency within the internal corpus?

We can't know of course... but we can know are those ideas Tolkien considered for publication and said "yes" to [I think JRRT just forgot what was in print and was influenced by his chat with Lord Halsbury. And for all we know the late story remained in such an unfinished state because Tolkien finally remembered -- the same day he began the new version possibly -- what he had already published about Nerwen. Just one possibility among others of course].

Anyway what is clear is what Tolkien himself actually published about Galadriel (banned for her role in the Rebellion), and Celeborn (a Sinda). Christopher Tolkien even remarks that (he thinks) if his father had remembered that Celebrimbor had been published as a Feanorean that he surely would not have altered him to being a Teler...

... the same should seemingly go for Celeborn and Galadriel, I would think.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This is how kingship was passed among the Anglo-Saxons.

Um, no. Kingship among the A-S was elective, by the witan in a role similar to the College of Cardinals, the candidate pool being the late King's male relatives. Strong kings sometimes but by no means always could impose a successor-presumptive on the council while still alive. Frequently a brother was selected, as being the eldest/most accomplished of the royal house, but by no means always; and by late A-S times a quasi-primogeniture undercurrent had crept in from the Continent, as we can see in the case of Alfred's disgruntled nephew Aethelwold. Ultimately the tensions arising from this unstable system resulted in the fall of Saxon England and the Norman Conquest.

The crowns of King of the Germans/HRE were of course always elective (this was complicated by the old and ultimately harmful Frankish tradition of divided inheritance, as in the case of Charlemagne's grandsons).


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There is no need to impose agnatic succession on the Noldor if Gil-galad is placed where he belongs in the House of Finarfin: straight Salic primogeniture works perfectly well. Note that there is no evidence of Idril ruling anything or taking the title of Queen.