The Dior Dilemma

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A lot of it has to do with the fact that according to both Tolkien and Manwe, the Gift of Men is much the superior option; the ability to leave the Circles of the World is so precious that no-one, not even a Vala, can take it away. This is the basis of the Mandos Rule: if any Eruhin possesses through even the least bit of genetics the right to go live with Eru, we can't take that away.

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(Saeros: he wasn't a Sinda or a native of Doriath but a Nando, a refugee from Amon Ereb, with their traditional dislike of Men; Thingol, Mablung and it would appear most everyone else thought he was being a prat)

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

A lot of it has to do with the fact that according to both Tolkien and Manwe, the Gift of Men is much the superior option; the ability to leave the Circles of the World is so precious that no-one, not even a Vala, can take it away. This is the basis of the Mandos Rule: if any Eruhin possesses through even the least bit of genetics the right to go live with Eru, we can't take that away.

I'm not sure the Valar can even change the fate of the Eruhíni in this department at all. They might theoretically be able to use brute force like Morgoth did with Húrin and Sauron later accomplished via the Nine Rings, but that isn't the same - not to mention that it would be wrong. Morgoth and Sauron use their powers to mess with Eru's plan in a way they are not supposed to.

I also very much doubt that Mandos/Eonwe or even Manwe himself were anything else but Eru's spokespersons on the matter of Beren-Lúthien or Eärendil-Elwing-Elrond-Elros. It is a fine tale that Mandos got moved by Lúthien's plea and at all - but even if that was the case it wouldn't have been up to Mandos (or Manwe) to send Beren back or allow Lúthien her choice. In that sense it is quite clear that Eru Ilúvatar could easily have granted any half-elven running around in Middle-earth to choose his fate if he was so inclined - which he wasn't. He reserved that privilege for his chosen bloodline, the people he destined to be crucial in the overthrowing of Morgoth during the First Age whose descendants would also found and rejuvenate the royal line of the Edain.

Whether Dior belonged to those or not remain unresolved. Since Eru did apparently never contact him directly Mandos may have received special instructions how to deal with him. Or not. We don't know. I guess there is a chance that he was given a choice but how he would have chosen is completely unclear. Was he emotionally closer to his wife or his mortal parents? His overall bearing suggests he was close to the Eldar but whether that's actually the case isn't clear - his ancestry and royal status might have forced him into accepting the kingship of Doriath.

And then there is the fact that he was not, in fact, a half-elf in the same sense as Eärendil, Elwing, or Elrond/Elros were. His parents already had been mortal by the time of his conception. On the other hand - Mandos/Manwe could already have revealed to Lúthien what the fate of their son would be and whether he had a choice. But if they did that it was never revealed. However, if Dior had been granted a choice and had made such a choice before his death then he would most likely have chosen the Eldar (because of his wife) and subsequently Elwing wouldn't have been born as a half-elf, or would she? She would have been born as an Elda, and there would have been no reason for her even to make a choice. In Eärendil's case it is clear - if Tuor got a choice then this would have been revealed to him/given to him afterwards. When he and Idril finally reached Aman (or only Tol Eressea?). Eärendil would still have been born as a half-elf.

(Saeros: he wasn't a Sinda or a native of Doriath but a Nando, a refugee from Amon Ereb, with their traditional dislike of Men; Thingol, Mablung and it would appear most everyone else thought he was being a prat)

That is of little significance. The man was a trusted adviser and courtier of King Thingol, and his bad behavior clearly reflects back on both Thingol and Melian and their judge of character. Something was rotten in the state of Doriath, or else such a person would never have risen to such prominence.

Not to mention that Thingol himself was, lets say, less than pleased when Beren was asking for Lúthien's hand in marriage. Given Beren such an impossible task was both wicked and cruel (because he wanted Beren to fail and die) as well as the first sign of his corruption because he actually coveted one of the Silmaril. And while it is great that Beren and Lúthien succeeded in their quest, their success was the first step in Doriath's downfall. Had Thingol just given Lúthien to Beren Doriath could, perhaps, have held out until the War of Wrath. Up to this point it had not yet been touched by the shadow nor committed any sins of its own that would draw them into the fate of the exiled Noldor.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ah, but Thingol had a 'road to Damascus' moment with regard to Men after the wolf-hunt and Beren's first death. The old Thingol would never have even entertained the idea of fostering Hurin's son.

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I suppose that's a question worth investigating: when exceptions to The Rules appeared, like Earendil, were the Valar empowered to apply the Manual of Regulations as best they could, or were such decisions above their paygrade? Tolkien hints, at the very least, in his Letters that Earendil and Luthien were part of the hidden Plan for the future of Arda, which implies direct Iluvataran guidance in those cases.

But Dior? No great Doom attached to his fate.

[Gothmog, LoB]

@William Cloud Hicklin:

Certainly, Thingol personally changed his mind on mind in the wake of the entire Beren-Lúthien episode. But he either failed to notice that there were counselors at his own court that didn't change their mind, or he didn't care to spread his new view among his own people (or he failed at that).

Saeros-Orgol's behavior reflects badly on himself and on Thingol-Melian because at any royal court mocking the foster son of the monarch is also an affront against the monarch itself. By mocking Túrin Saeros clearly also showed publicly that he didn't care all that much about Thingol and his decisions. And trying to kill Túrin - well, that's an even bigger crime.

Well, from Ósanwe-kenta that Eru could directly contact anyone he wished, and nothing could prevent him from doing so. Therefore he could have given Dior (or any other half-elven he wanted to reach) a choice without going through Manwe or Mandos.

In the case of Eärendil-Elwing and their children it is portrayed as if Manwe/Mandos knew of them and Manwe had been previously given the authority to grant them their choice. But whether this was actually so or whether Manwe silently conversed with Eru before he addressed Eärendil and Elwing isn't really clear.

However, if Eärendil-Elwing were so central to the history of Arda and so special as Tolkien suggests in his letter (and there is no reason to doubt that considering that Eärendil definitely is the greatest and most important hero of the entire Silmarillion complex) then it might very well be that their deeds were predetermined by the Music of the Ainur and/or at least visible in the vision Eru later showed the Ainur.

If that was the case then Manwe most likely wouldn't have been able to actively ask for Eru's counsel on the whole thing - but Eru would still have been the one granting Manwe the right and the power to change the fate of Eärendil, Elwing, and their children. This doesn't seem to be a power the Valar routinely possess.

An intervention of Eru would have been even more necessary in the case of Beren and Lúthien because the restoration of Beren's body and Lúthien's permission to leave the confines of the world together with Beren doesn't seem like something the Valar would actually be able to do or influence.

And Dior - well, as I've said above if things had gone differently he might have been with Eärendil on Vingilot, or he might even have fulfilled Eärendil's role. He ended up as the King of Doriath and was killed, but we don't know what would have happened if Turgon had left Gondolin when Tuor first came there.

Eru's original plan might have been that Turgon, Idril, Tuor, Eärendil, Elwing, Nimloth, and Dior show up as emissaries from Beleriand. In that case Manwe might have given all of them a choice (save Turgon, of course).

In Arda Marred we should always consider the possibility that things didn't go as planned. Eventually Eru always triumphs (at least according to the Eldarin propaganda) but the lives of many people still sucked (including those of Orcs, Túrin-Nienor, and so on).

[Alcuin]

Mandos did not make rules: He enforced them. And he did that aggressively.

From Silmarillion, “Of Beren and Lúthien”, after Lúthien sang to Mandos in his halls of the suffering of Elves and Men, moving him to pity “who never before was so moved, nor has been since”:

Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar.

Mandos couldn’t change the rules. In the debate over Eärendil and Elwing,

Mandos spoke concerning [Eärendil’s] fate; and he said: “Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?” But Ulmo said: “…is … Eärendil Tuor’s son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon’s daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?”…

…Manwë … said: “In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.”

When this debate takes place, Dior, Elwing’s father, is already dead. So are her brothers, Eluréd and Eluchíl. Mandos has already seen and knows what has happened to their spirits: If they’ve left Arda, he knows it and can report it, but if they’ve remained in Arda, he knows and will report that. His speech indicates they’ve all three departed from his halls and from Arda to wherever the souls of Men go.

The Problem of the Half-Elven had not yet been debated by the Valar. It didn’t require resolution until Eärendil arrived on the shores of Eldamar with Elwing and the Silmaril. Besides, Tolkien’s imaginary “history” is, like real history, the records of rulers. There’s no reason not to believe that there were other unions of Elves and Men (like Imrazôr and Mithrellas), just no other unions among the ruling houses: The only unions in the ruling houses were Beren and Lúthien, who both returned to Middle-earth as Mortals, and Tuor and Idril.

If Dior is Mortal – not “Man”, because physically he really is Half-Elven, and his wife is Elven and so “immortal” (longevial with Arda), then Elwing his daughter is in the same position as Eärendil: “Half-Mortal”. Half-Mortal may be a better term for this debate than “Half-Elven”.

Mandos enters into the debate about Eärendil and Elwing with the knowledge that Dior, Eluréd, and Eluchíl arrived in his halls and then departed Arda; otherwise, he cannot defend his position in the debate.

The key passage is this:

The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him

Eärendil and Elwing knowingly took upon themselves the dreadful risk of punishment out of love. And in respect of their self-sacrifice, a one-time decision was made: They could choose that fate they would share: with Elves to remain in Arda, or with Men to depart from Arda. The same choice was offered to Elros and Elrond, and to Elrond’s children while he lived.

I worked out the math several years ago, and I think I’ve posted it here before. Only if Dior is Mortal is Elwing also Half-Mortal.

My points, though, are these:

1. Mandos knew what happened to Elwing’s father and brothers, who had already died.
2. He was bound to truthfully report this to the other Valar.
3. Mandos wasn’t making rules: He was carrying out Rules he had been given.
4. Mandos cannot change anyone’s Fate: Elves stay, Men leave. The only exception so far was Lúthien, and she left with Beren.
5. His speech implies that Lúthien’s son and grandsons left Arda, too.
6. Manwë made an exception because Eärendil and Elwing acted out of love and self-sacrifice.

Manwë, not Mandos, also made the exception for Lúthien.

Love and self-sacrifice are the missing ingredients so far in this thread. Remember, Tolkien is Christian and Catholic. Love and self-sacrifice are central themes in the Crucifixion. “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

Beren sacrificed his life for love of Lúthien; Lúthien sacrificed her life for love of Beren, then begged Mandos for mercy. Perhaps because she’s half-Maia, Mandos relents, but he still has to go to Manwë to accomplish this, because Mandos has no authority to change the Rules. “Manwë sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Ilúvatar was revealed.” We would say that Manwë prayed and meditated. In this way the line of Lúthien descended among Men. That wasn’t Manwë’s will: it was Ilúvatar’s.

Eärendil sacrificed himself for love of Elves and Men. Elwing sacrificed herself for love of Eärendil. This time, Manwë doesn’t hesitate: he cuts off debate and says they get to choose.

Elrond’s children also get to choose among which people they will be numbered, Elves or Men. Perhaps Elros’ three sons and daughter also had this opportunity; but probably not. I agree with Gothmog, LoB that this is “the real problem with the Peredhil” for readers. I think a reasonable explanation is that it was Eru’s will that, at the end of the Third Age, Arwen sacrificed herself for love of Aragorn to re-ennoble the descendents of the Númenórean kings as the Fourth Age began, and refresh the line of Lúthien. (Arwen was Lúthien's granddaughter's granddaughter. Aragorn was separated from Lúthien by about sixty generations.) Giving Elrond’s children the same choice as their father enabled this.

These are not the only times love and self-sacrifice appear as major themes in Tolkien’s mythos. In the Lord of the Rings, Frodo and Sam both sacrifice themselves: Frodo for love of the Shire, Sam for love of Frodo. Gandalf sacrifices himself on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm to protect Aragorn and Boromir, who foolishly charged onto the bridge and would otherwise have been killed. Gil-galad and Elendil sacrificed themselves to save their peoples and destroy Sauron’s physical form. Amandil last Lord of Andúnië sacrificed himself to save to the Faithful Númenóreans before the Downfall of Númenor: Elendil and his sons and followers were spared. This is a reoccurring theme in Tolkien.

[Gothmog, LoB]

@Alcuin:

Yeah, Dior wouldn't be diminished in his divine bloodline, power, or abilities by not inheriting the fate of the Eldar from his parents. When Beren and Lúthien returned to Middle-earth they had become mortal but both of them - but especially Lúthien - were still immensely powerful and blessed thanks to the rewards they reaped for the deeds they did.

And I think the fact that Dior was the son of Beren and Lúthien as well as the grandson of Melian and Thingol was what enabled him to become the King of Doriath despite the fact that he would most likely not rule this kingdom for long.

If we go with the sacrifice theme as the reason why Eärendil and Elwing were rewarded with the choice (and strangely also their sons who didn't do anything to deserve such a privilege) then Dior might actually have been unlucky because he was slain before he could make such sacrifices himself.

As I've said above, the timeline would certainly have allowed Dior to team up with and accompany Eärendil to Valinor had there been no Second and Third Kinslaying. And if Turgon had left Gondolin before the Ruin of Doriath he and Tuor/Idril might have been able to prevent both the Second and Third Kinslaying. I mean, whatever pitiful forces Feanor's sons still had when they attacked Doriath and later the Mouths of Siron wouldn't have been a match for the Gondolindrim had they come to live with Dior at Doriath and/or convinced him to move down south with them to built the ship for the grand journey.

Dior could easily have been the one wearing the Simaril his parents took from Morgoth, whereas Eärendil would have just been the guy who built and steered Vingilot. But that didn't come to pass.

And if it is true that Tuor was in the end counted among the Eldar then Dior also could have been able to be granted the same fate, or at least a choice about what he wanted.

The problem with Arwen's choice can be sort of rectified with Gandalf acting as Manwe/Eru's messenger, but if that's the case then Tolkien really dropped the ball in properly establishing/setting up any of that. I mean, there would have been space in Appendix A to recount how Gandalf (or even Saruman) informed Elrond and his daughter about the special destiny that awaited Arwen in the future.

But there are also hints that all of Elrond's children are sort of considered to be chattel of their father, bound to him fate-wise in a very direct sense. After all, it is said that by not going with Elrond they effectively chose mortality. And if that works for Elrond's children then it should also work for Elros' children - meaning that had his children decided to leave their father and return either to the Eldar in Middle-earth or go to Aman that they would have been counted among the Eldar.

And that is a very strange idea.

And as far as I recall it is completely unclear whether Elladan and Elrohir truly chose the fate of mortal men by staying behind or whether they (and Arwen, as her last conversation with Aragorn suggested) could change their mind until the very end simply by repenting and taking a ship into the True West.

There is also a continuity error there in regards to the time when Círdan left. Celeborn and Elrond's sons are still there at that time, and Legolas later builds his own ship but Arwen claims that when Aragorn died no ship was left which could take her west, indicating that the Mithlond was already deserted.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

but Arwen claims that when Aragorn died no ship was left which could take her west, indicating that the Mithlond was already deserted.

It could be read that way, but it also could be interpreted as meaning that although there were still ships, Arwen wouldn't be allowed to board (the actual wording used is "would take" not "could take"). She had given up her ticket, as it were.

The fact that Legolas built his own ship is interesting (where did he learn the craft??) Does this imply that Cirdan was out of business, or does it reflect statements T makes elsewhere that suggest rather strongly that sailing West was the prerogative of the exiled Noldor alone?*

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*Plus Cirdan, acording to the late essay on him: after all, he would have gone after Olwe but for Ulmo's command.