Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[Formendacil]

Fact: Sauron gave seven Rings of Power to Dwarf-kings.

Fact: There were seven ancestral houses of Dwarves.

Only Speculation: The seven "Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone" who received the seven Rings corresponded one-to-one to the seven different Dwarf-tribes.



Fact: By the time of the Rings' forging, at least one Dwarf-house (Nogrod) and possibly two (Belegost) were greatly weakened.

(Related question: from simple geography, how likely is it that Sauron, in the years after the destruction of Eregion and the theft of the the work of the Mirdain, went anywhere near the Blue Mountains, so close to Lindon?)

Fact: Dwarves in the Second Age could have more than one kingdom--or, at least, more than one outpost. The Longbeards ruled the Misty Mountains from Moria to Gundabad, and across the Grey Mountains, with an outpost colony in the Iron Hills. Who is to say that the four Dwarf-tribes of the East did not have multiple kingdoms? In the earlier Ages of their greatest fecundity, why couldn't the Dwarves had spread to found more than seven ancestral houses?

We know, at the very least, that the Rings of Power given to the "kings of Men" could not have all gone to literal Kings, because three of them went to Númenóreans, none of whom were Kings of Númenor. The possibility for a similar sort of analogy seems to me to be at least potentially in play here.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Slight correction: the Ring-verse says Dwarf-lords, not kings, and everywhere else that I can think of to look it just says "to the Dwarves" without specifying kings.

--------------------

Query: if the regal heirs of Nogrod and Belegost survived the War of Wrath, did they go to Moria with the "many" of their people who migrated there? Were they content to be powerless and rather resentful guests of the House of Durin?

[Zigûr]

I always assumed that two of the seven were given to the successors of the rulers of Belegost and Nogrod who by then lived in Moria, but I suppose they simply could have been afforded to powerful Dwarves in general.

Given the Dwarves' limited numbers, however, and the fact that the royal line of the Longbeards was afforded a Ring, one wonders if any other Rings were concealed in the West at all, or if all the other six were in the East where the Dwarves appear to have been more numerous, at least at one time.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

(Related question: from simple geography, how likely is it that Sauron, in the years after the destruction of Eregion and the theft of the the work of the Mirdain, went anywhere near the Blue Mountains, so close to Lindon?)

I read an idea somewhere (it may have been Michael Martinez's site) that the Dwarf rings were distributed by Sauron or one of his agents at one of the dwarven conclaves at Gundabad. This idea has much to recommend it, I think.

Fact: Dwarves in the Second Age could have more than one kingdom--or, at least, more than one outpost. The Longbeards ruled the Misty Mountains from Moria to Gundabad, and across the Grey Mountains, with an outpost colony in the Iron Hills. Who is to say that the four Dwarf-tribes of the East did not have multiple kingdoms? In the earlier Ages of their greatest fecundity, why couldn't the Dwarves had spread to found more than seven ancestral houses?

A valid point.

I will say that the idea multiplies things into the point of imagination. Also, the Longbeards only ever spoke of being given one ring even though they were widely dispersed at the time. A similar thing may have been at play in the other houses.

We know, at the very least, that the Rings of Power given to the "kings of Men" could not have all gone to literal Kings, because three of them went to Númenóreans, none of whom were Kings of Númenor. The possibility for a similar sort of analogy seems to me to be at least potentially in play here.

That is a very good point.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Slight correction: the Ring-verse says Dwarf-lords, not kings, and everywhere else that I can think of to look it just says "to the Dwarves" without specifying kings.

Another idea that maybe needs its own topic...

Tolkien was not systematic at all in his use of the term "lord." He used it indiscriminately to refer to any and all authority figures from high to low. Théoden was referred to as "Lord of Rohan" even though we know he was king. Durin the whichever was referred to as "Lord of Moria" (translating the word "Aran" from the West Gate) and we know that the Durins were kings. In fact, it is my belief that "aran" usually translates as "king."

Tolkien was so erratic in his use of the word that I don't think it can be used to build much of a case for anything.

Query: if the regal heirs of Nogrod and Belegost survived the War of Wrath, did they go to Moria with the "many" of their people who migrated there? Were they content to be powerless and rather resentful guests of the House of Durin?

My belief is they would have stayed in the Blue Mountains. I will cite Thorin as support for my argument. He always wanted to get back to Erebor. In fact, the Longbeards in general wanted to get back to Moria. Nogrod and Belegost may themselves have been destroyed but I think some of their survivors would have wanted to stay close to them and I think the leaders in particular would have been most likely to do so.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Given the Dwarves' limited numbers, however, and the fact that the royal line of the Longbeards was afforded a Ring, one wonders if any other Rings were concealed in the West at all, or if all the other six were in the East where the Dwarves appear to have been more numerous, at least at one time.

That is another possible idea.

[Mithadan]

I read an idea somewhere (it may have been Michael Martinez's site) that the Dwarf rings were distributed by Sauron or one of his agents at one of the dwarven conclaves at Gundabad.

I have not looked at Peoples of Middle Earth in some time. I recall that volume mentioning that Durin (the first) woke in Gundabad but do not recall any mention that Gundabad was a place where the Longbeards actually lived as a race. Nor do I recall any mention of enclaves there. This, of course, does not mean that there is some mention of these matters. I just do not recall.

Given the timeframe, the Rings were distributed in the Second Age, if there was an enclave of Dwarves or their "lords", isn't it more likely that it took place in Khazad Dum, the greatest of the mansions of that race, rather than Gundabad.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Given the timeframe, the Rings were distributed in the Second Age, if there was an enclave of Dwarves or their "lords", isn't it more likely that it took place in Khazad Dum, the greatest of the mansions of that race, rather than Gundabad.

I think textual information supports this idea.

The Tale of Years indicates that in S.A c. 40 "Many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers".

Since the Rings of Power were not completed until after the first millennium of the Age, one would think Moria's population would be even greater by then, and, as the seat of power for the Longbeards, it would have been the Mecca of the Dwarves as a whole.

The Dwarves of the Blue Mountains going to Moria would also lead me to think that there were nothing like the old kingdoms of Nogrod and Belegost remaining, with the remnant Dwarven population having a mind to go someplace more prosperous.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I have not looked at Peoples of Middle Earth in some time. I recall that volume mentioning that Durin (the first) woke in Gundabad but do not recall any mention that Gundabad was a place where the Longbeards actually lived as a race. Nor do I recall any mention of enclaves there. This, of course, does not mean that there is some mention of these matters. I just do not recall.

I found the reference.

Though these four points were far sundered the Dwarves of different kindreds were in communication, and in the early ages often held assemblies of delegates at Mount Gundabad.
-Of Dwarves and Men

"Early ages" is an ambiguous phrase, but I think the Second Age would still qualify as an early age.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since the Rings of Power were not completed until after the first millennium of the Age, one would think Moria's population would be even greater by then, and, as the seat of power for the Longbeards, it would have been the Mecca of the Dwarves as a whole.

I think Gundabad probably was more the "Mecca" of the dwarves in literally a more religious sense. I don't think it was necessarily a major settlement in terms of population but I think we have to assume some dwarves did indeed live there until its fall.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Another idea that maybe needs its own topic...

Tolkien was not systematic at all in his use of the term "lord." He used it indiscriminately to refer to any and all authority figures from high to low. Théoden was referred to as "Lord of Rohan" even though we know he was king. Durin the whichever was referred to as "Lord of Moria" (translating the word "Aran" from the West Gate) and we know that the Durins were kings. In fact, it is my belief that "aran" usually translates as "king."

Tolkien was so erratic in his use of the word that I don't think it can be used to build much of a case for anything.

No more erratic than Shakespeare, who freely used "lord" for kings; more fairly stated, though, is simply that in the Early Modern English usage Tolkien employed, "lord" as a category included "king." Even on Sunday, the Eternal King of Kings is called Lord!

I'm not however trying to split so fine a hair; I'm just saying that nothing in what Tolkien wrote says necessarily that the recipients of the Seven all had to be kings, some could, at least grammatically, have been lesser Dwarven nobles. (Balin claimed the title Lord of Moria, too; unfortunately Tolkien never defined the title uzbad for us!)

----------------

Yes, aran = "king." It is the title Elessar uses in the Sindarin translation of the King's Letter to Sam (Elessar Telcontar: Aragorn Arathornion Edhelharn, aran Gondor); cf. Fornost Erain "Norbury of the kings" and Ereinion "scion of kings." Gandalf was a loose translator! (The usual Sindarin for "lord" was hîr , as in Rohirrim "horse-lords" and our stubby Durinian friends Gonhirrim "stone-lords." Elessar's titles go on "... aran Gondor ar Arnor ar Hîr iMbair Annui", Lord of the Westlands.)

[Faramir Jones]

I agree with William that Tolkien used 'lord' both as a formal title for and a mode of address to rulers and their immediate family. It was also used as a general term for 'ruler' regardless of the ruler's title. For example, Theoden spoke about the distance to Minas Tirith where 'Denethor is lord'. When he died in battle and Denethor committed suicide on the same day, there was a mention of Gondor and Rohan being without their 'lords'. No distinction was made there between Denethor as a steward and Theoden as a king.

Looking at The Hobbit, it doesn't appear that Thorin called himself king until after being told that Smaug was dead, therefore being assured that the Mountain and the treasure was his; and he was addressing the army of Lake-men and Wood-elves who came north to the Mountain. Earlier, for example, when he first met the Lake-men, he only (and carefully) referred to himself as the grandson, through Thrain, of Thror, the last acknowledged King under the Mountain.