Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Yes, I see what you're saying.

I think really we have another bit of Tolkien creating a bind for himself that he never cleared up, if he even noticed the problem at all. The Seven Rings appeared, almost ex nihilo, in the Ring-verse. The idea of the "Seven Houses of the Dwarves" came rather later but was, I'm pretty sure, derived from it; it made sense and still does that Sauron gave a ring to each Dwarf-king.

The problem came, as so many did, from trying to ret-con the new material into the existing legendarium, and the incompatibility of having seven dwarf-kingdoms in the Second Age but two major ones from the old legendarium which going by the LR weren't there any more. There isn't any real solution except by artificial rationalization, and unlike Tolkien we don't get to re-write anything.

And then there is something of a how-de-do with the idea that four, count 'em, four of the Dwarf-rings were lost to dragon fire. There are certain geographical problems posed by that.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Yes, I see what you're saying.

I think really we have another bit of Tolkien creating a bind for himself that he never cleared up,

Yup, but half the fun of being a Tolkien fan is trying to figure out ways to make all the inconsistencies make some kind of rational sense.

There isn't any real solution except by artificial rationalization

Again, half the fun...and I think the ideas presented make sense.

And then there is something of a how-de-do with the idea that four, count 'em, four of the Dwarf-rings were lost to dragon fire. There are certain geographical problems posed by that.

Possibly, but not necessarily. It is true that it is almost essential to assume that the four rings eaten by dragons were the ones of the eastern houses. However, perhaps dragons were more active and widespread in eastern Middle-earth. That, in fact, might be used as a piece of evidence to support such an assertion.

Another question is, how did the news get out? I'm assuming the dwarves would have spread the word eventually as time passed.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Alternative ret-con: one of the Blue Mountain royal houses relocated (perhaps after a stint in Moria) to the Grey Mountains, like Thrain to Erebor. Some time after, reptilian flammenwerfer, dwarvecue and so on.


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perhaps dragons were more active and widespread in eastern Middle-earth. That, in fact, might be used as a piece of evidence to support such an assertion.

Hobbit Ch. 1- Bilbo claimed he was willing to "walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms of the Last Desert"*

*revised text. 1st ed, "Gobi desert"

[Formendacil]

Fact: Sauron gave seven Rings of Power to Dwarf-kings.

Fact: There were seven ancestral houses of Dwarves.

Only Speculation: The seven "Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone" who received the seven Rings corresponded one-to-one to the seven different Dwarf-tribes.



Fact: By the time of the Rings' forging, at least one Dwarf-house (Nogrod) and possibly two (Belegost) were greatly weakened.

(Related question: from simple geography, how likely is it that Sauron, in the years after the destruction of Eregion and the theft of the the work of the Mirdain, went anywhere near the Blue Mountains, so close to Lindon?)

Fact: Dwarves in the Second Age could have more than one kingdom--or, at least, more than one outpost. The Longbeards ruled the Misty Mountains from Moria to Gundabad, and across the Grey Mountains, with an outpost colony in the Iron Hills. Who is to say that the four Dwarf-tribes of the East did not have multiple kingdoms? In the earlier Ages of their greatest fecundity, why couldn't the Dwarves had spread to found more than seven ancestral houses?

We know, at the very least, that the Rings of Power given to the "kings of Men" could not have all gone to literal Kings, because three of them went to Númenóreans, none of whom were Kings of Númenor. The possibility for a similar sort of analogy seems to me to be at least potentially in play here.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Slight correction: the Ring-verse says Dwarf-lords, not kings, and everywhere else that I can think of to look it just says "to the Dwarves" without specifying kings.

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Query: if the regal heirs of Nogrod and Belegost survived the War of Wrath, did they go to Moria with the "many" of their people who migrated there? Were they content to be powerless and rather resentful guests of the House of Durin?

[Zigûr]

I always assumed that two of the seven were given to the successors of the rulers of Belegost and Nogrod who by then lived in Moria, but I suppose they simply could have been afforded to powerful Dwarves in general.

Given the Dwarves' limited numbers, however, and the fact that the royal line of the Longbeards was afforded a Ring, one wonders if any other Rings were concealed in the West at all, or if all the other six were in the East where the Dwarves appear to have been more numerous, at least at one time.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

(Related question: from simple geography, how likely is it that Sauron, in the years after the destruction of Eregion and the theft of the the work of the Mirdain, went anywhere near the Blue Mountains, so close to Lindon?)

I read an idea somewhere (it may have been Michael Martinez's site) that the Dwarf rings were distributed by Sauron or one of his agents at one of the dwarven conclaves at Gundabad. This idea has much to recommend it, I think.

Fact: Dwarves in the Second Age could have more than one kingdom--or, at least, more than one outpost. The Longbeards ruled the Misty Mountains from Moria to Gundabad, and across the Grey Mountains, with an outpost colony in the Iron Hills. Who is to say that the four Dwarf-tribes of the East did not have multiple kingdoms? In the earlier Ages of their greatest fecundity, why couldn't the Dwarves had spread to found more than seven ancestral houses?

A valid point.

I will say that the idea multiplies things into the point of imagination. Also, the Longbeards only ever spoke of being given one ring even though they were widely dispersed at the time. A similar thing may have been at play in the other houses.

We know, at the very least, that the Rings of Power given to the "kings of Men" could not have all gone to literal Kings, because three of them went to Númenóreans, none of whom were Kings of Númenor. The possibility for a similar sort of analogy seems to me to be at least potentially in play here.

That is a very good point.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Slight correction: the Ring-verse says Dwarf-lords, not kings, and everywhere else that I can think of to look it just says "to the Dwarves" without specifying kings.

Another idea that maybe needs its own topic...

Tolkien was not systematic at all in his use of the term "lord." He used it indiscriminately to refer to any and all authority figures from high to low. Théoden was referred to as "Lord of Rohan" even though we know he was king. Durin the whichever was referred to as "Lord of Moria" (translating the word "Aran" from the West Gate) and we know that the Durins were kings. In fact, it is my belief that "aran" usually translates as "king."

Tolkien was so erratic in his use of the word that I don't think it can be used to build much of a case for anything.

Query: if the regal heirs of Nogrod and Belegost survived the War of Wrath, did they go to Moria with the "many" of their people who migrated there? Were they content to be powerless and rather resentful guests of the House of Durin?

My belief is they would have stayed in the Blue Mountains. I will cite Thorin as support for my argument. He always wanted to get back to Erebor. In fact, the Longbeards in general wanted to get back to Moria. Nogrod and Belegost may themselves have been destroyed but I think some of their survivors would have wanted to stay close to them and I think the leaders in particular would have been most likely to do so.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Given the Dwarves' limited numbers, however, and the fact that the royal line of the Longbeards was afforded a Ring, one wonders if any other Rings were concealed in the West at all, or if all the other six were in the East where the Dwarves appear to have been more numerous, at least at one time.

That is another possible idea.