There and Back Again

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I think Bilbo's changed too, he just doesn't seem to care. The end of The Hobbit says Bilbo lost more than his possessions after he returned, he lost his respectability, he just didn't really care.

I think it's not so much that Bilbo "didn't care", as it is that while both he and Frodo were changed by their travels, Bilbo was changed for the better while Frodo was changed in a negative way. Bilbo returned having grown spiritually and emotionally, bringing back with him a wealth of experience and a deep pool of (mostly) positive memories - he could live his life now in the Shire content: his (at first unadmitted) desire for travel and adventure had been appeased, and he was secure in the knowledge that one day he could and would set out again to revisit the wondrous places of his travels. He was able to balance the "small town" comfort of the Shire withe a deep first-hand knowledge that the world is a vast and mysterious place full of wonders...

On the contrary, Frodo's experience was wrought with unbearable responsibility, tragedy, desperation and pain. The Middle-earth that he experienced was not one of wonder so much as danger. His return to the safety and complacency of the Shire, of "home" was tempered and tainted with the knowledge and experience he'd gained: unlike the sense of wonder and longing Bilbo gained, Frodo was filled with a despairing and debilitating knowledge that the world is a cruel and dangerous place, where true evil exists, and the balance of good and peace and safety hang precariously by a thread... As such, he could never truly feel safe or at ease anywhere again. Except perhaps (one would hope) in Valinor.

[Galadriel55]

Very interesting thread, and very interesting ideas!

As I was reading this thread, it occurred to me that an additional difference between Bilbo's and Frodo's returns is their feeling of responsibility. Bilbo never felt responsible for the world, or for the Shire more specifically. Meanwhile, Frodo knows full well the gravity of his mission - it's not just adventure for him - and it weighs down on him, especially because he transposes that sense of responsibility onto his home. He goes through the entire journey in part to save the Shire, to keep it whole.

Of course, that's a perilous path to take just on its own. If your beacon of light is your memory of a person or place, coming back to realize that it (or you) changed in your absence and there's no going back to the way it was before is harsh. But in Frodo's case, there's the added sense of responsibility. He felt it was his duty to keep the Shire safe and hobbitishly unconcerned about the greater troubles of the world. He came back to find that he failed on that count, and he failed to keep the Shire from "growing up" character-wise (becoming worldly-wise?) even when all the repairs were finished. In a way, the Shire as a whole developed during that year like Bilbo during his trip. The Shire changed too, not just Frodo.

New thoughts are popping into my head, and I realize I'm falling a bit off my original track with them. The thought I wanted to put out is that Frodo feels responsible (and guilty) for the change that happened in the Shire both physically and character-wise. Bilbo doesn't feel the responsibility for the Shire, and it doesn't change much during his journey; it's only him that changes. He just looks at the same Shire with different eyes - the things that used to matter to him stop mattering so much. But for Frodo, the biggest pain is that he wants to go back to the memory of his peaceful life before the Ring, filled with small earthly concerns, and he can't. So The Hobbit ends up bitter-sweet, but positive, slightly "grown up", but LOTR ends up sad and nostalgic.

[Leaf]

Interesting topic! Alot of the themes you're discussing are culminating in the very last exchange of views between Bilbo and Gandalf:

Originally Posted by The Hobbit. The last stage

» Then the prophecies of the old songs have turned out to be true, after a fashion!« said Bilbo. »Of course!« said Gandalf. »And why should not they prove true? Surely you don't disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself? You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit? You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!«

»Thank goodness!« said Bilbo laughing, and handed him the tobacco-jar.

I always liked this ending. It is interesting in so many ways. The most interesting aspect is, in my opinion, that here's one of the very few instances where Gandalf errs: but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all! This statement is only true in a strict sense. Bilbo is just a single person in this world. But even though Gandalf's objection is (as always) well reasoned and appropriate given the recent events; it is ultimatly flawed aswell. As it turns out later, Bilbo and his actions are from the uttermost importance for the history of the whole world and everyone in it.

And in way it's as much Tolkien's error as it is Gandalf's. Both of them had no way to foretell Bilbo's special status at the given time. One could also suspect that Gandalf's words were voicing the author's thoughts. I think Tolkien tries to degrade his own protagonist from the center of the story to a mere aspect of his fictional world. A fictional world which began to take shape long before The Hobbit, and without Bilbo. It was lurking in the backround, unpublished and unfinished. So, I think this might be Prof. Tolkien's reflection of his relationship with the character of Bilbo and The Hobbit, as a novel: You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!

It's funny that it came to pass that the wide world of the 'legendarium' couldn't get around Bilbo and The Hobbit after all.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Leaf

As it turns out later, Bilbo and his actions are from the uttermost importance for the history of the whole world and everyone in it.

That is true, but in Gandalf's defense, only a small part is played in great deeds by any hero.

ETA: Reflecting upon an earlier point, I feel that upon his return to the Shire, sure, Bilbo probably felt offended and somewhat betrayed that his things were being put on sale. However, after sorting out that initial mess, I feel like he just had a feeling of good-natured amusement towards the Shire. He still loves it, he's just outgrown it.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Very interesting thread, and very interesting ideas!

As I was reading this thread, it occurred to me that an additional difference between Bilbo's and Frodo's returns is their feeling of responsibility. Bilbo never felt responsible for the world, or for the Shire more specifically. Meanwhile, Frodo knows full well the gravity of his mission - it's not just adventure for him - and it weighs down on him, especially because he transposes that sense of responsibility onto his home. He goes through the entire journey in part to save the Shire, to keep it whole.

Of course, that's a perilous path to take just on its own. If your beacon of light is your memory of a person or place, coming back to realize that it (or you) changed in your absence and there's no going back to the way it was before is harsh. But in Frodo's case, there's the added sense of responsibility. He felt it was his duty to keep the Shire safe and hobbitishly unconcerned about the greater troubles of the world. He came back to find that he failed on that count, and he failed to keep the Shire from "growing up" character-wise (becoming worldly-wise?) even when all the repairs were finished. In a way, the Shire as a whole developed during that year like Bilbo during his trip. The Shire changed too, not just Frodo.

What's interesting to me about Frodo's journey versus Bilbo's is that Bilbo was out on a treasure hunt, something that's not going to affect the Shire at all. Frodo is going out already knowing somewhere within himself that he might die trying to save everything he's ever known. The Shire might die in the process, it might not. Frodo has no idea what the end of his adventures is going to bring. What you said earlier, G55, about Frodo's beacon of light really shines true for a lot of people, including myself. If you idealize wherever you came from to cope with your long and hard journey, you're going to find home not quite as homey as it was when you left it. Frodo and the Shire changed in a way that is irreparable. One of the saddest parts of the Scouring to me was the destruction of the party tree in Hobbiton. It was beautiful that Sam was able to replace it with the seed and soil from Lothlorien, but it was a loss to the Shire all the same. That moment struck me as the hardest tangible change the Shire had to pass through. Just like Frodo had to deal with the physical harm he endured on his journey, the Shire must deal with its physical scars as well.

I'm not entirely sure where I was going with this, to be honest. But I think I was just trying to say that Frodo and Bilbo's changes were fundamentally different. Frodo's change coupled with the Shire's change made it hard for him to have peace, while Bilbo's adventures brought him a comfortable life and more friends. Bilbo had peace, Frodo didn't.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

What's interesting to me about Frodo's journey versus Bilbo's is that Bilbo was out on a treasure hunt, something that's not going to affect the Shire at all.

Was treasure his main object, though? Bilbo was more after his idea of 'adventure', with monetary reward being only a side benefit.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

Frodo is going out already knowing somewhere within himself that he might die trying to save everything he's ever known.

Frodo didn't really understand at the time he set out, though. He'd been told by Gandalf what the stakes were, but I don't think things truly became clear to him until he was wounded by the Witch-king's blade. Until then, I think he mainly saw himself as following Bilbo to Rivendell, with the Ring being something he had to just deliver. After being healed of the knife-wound, which was far more dangerous to him spiritually than physically, he might have felt 'marked' as the true Ring-bearer, and Gandalf's words about him being meant to have the Ring became more than just words.

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

I think I was just trying to say that Frodo and Bilbo's changes were fundamentally different. Frodo's change coupled with the Shire's change made it hard for him to have peace, while Bilbo's adventures brought him a comfortable life and more friends. Bilbo had peace, Frodo didn't.

Yes, Bilbo at least had an unchanged Shire to welcome him. The friends were probably not as numerous, since he'd shown himself to be so eccentric as to go off on an 'adventure'.

[Boromir88]

Thanks everyone for the compliments and responses. A lot of good stuff here and I didn't think about how their very different journeys/experiences impacted them in very different ways which made their return to home different. As others have said Bilbo goes off on almost a holiday (a dangerous holiday, but he's not setting out to "save the Shire."), Frodo is leaving Bag End because it will (he hopes) save the Shire.

'I should like to save the Shire, if I could - though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words, and have felt than an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them. But I don't feel like that now. I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is a firm foothold even if my feet cannot stand there again.'~The Shadow of the Past

A couple things here...I haven't read LOTR in a while, but I just burst out laughing remembering Frodo admitting he's thought an earthquake or a dragon invasion would do the hobbits some good. Haven't we all felt that way about the places we live? In the end though, we don't seriously wish ill-will upon meddlesome relatives and neighbors. The last sentence is nifty foreshadowing. Frodo's decided to leave and finds "wandering more bearable", as long the Shire lays behind safely. But Frodo seems to know already this journey is going to change him, it's much different from Bilbo's and he is attempting to keep the Shire safe and comfortable, but not for himself: "even if my feet cannot stand there again."

'Of course, I have sometimes thought of going away, but I imagined that as kind of a holiday, a series of adventures like Bilbo or better, ending in peace. But this would mean exile, a flight from danger into danger, drawing it after me. And I suppose I must go alone, if I am to do that and save the Shire. But I feel very small, and very uprooted, and well - desperate. The Enemey is so strong and terrible.'~ibid

Frodo's imagined leaving as well, but more like Bilbo's journey. Yes, Bilbo face several dangers and came back changed, but it's quite different from fleeing from danger into even more peril. Bilbo's Took-side overruled his Baggins side of "what will the neighbors say and think?" He had a choice to leave. What choice does Frodo really have? I mean Gandalf comes in and pretty much details Frodo's only option is to flee with the Ring. No wonder he feels "uprooted."

Some other random musings on home and the estrangement from home. That's what sparked the idea to start this thread. I'm trying to find it, but one day I was reading commentary about sci-fi/fantasty stories establishing recognition and estrangement. Recognition being "home," or just having things from the readers' world that we recognize/relate to. The best fantasy stories are created when the author can establish recognition/home to the reader. Tolkien makes it quite easy to relate to Bilbo and Frodo, because even in his Middle-earth, there are simple moments he added to make us feel home, like Bilbo and Frodo. Bilbo chooses to run into this vast land of the strange and unknown, Frodo is essentially forced and thrust into it by the Ring. In both cases, the readers are going through the same exact experiences, we are following Bilbo and Frodo...out of home, into the strange "wide world." But as discussed, it doesn't end there. In fact, I would say it can't end there. We must return home, and either Frodo and Bilbo have changed, home has changed, or both.

Edit: I meant to say, for myself, recognition of home is immediate in The Hobbit. That famous first line pulls you in to "home" right away, and then the description of Bilbo's home. Even if a hobbit-hole isn't my home...there's that saying "Home is where the heart is..." or something along the lines of "Home is what you make of it." The Shire/Bag End isn't our home, but it can feel like, remind us of what home is to us, because of Tolkien's story-telling brilliance.

[Mithadan]

By Galadriel55 He felt it was his duty to keep the Shire safe and hobbitishly unconcerned about the greater troubles of the world. He came back to find that he failed on that count, and he failed to keep the Shire from "growing up" character-wise (becoming worldly-wise?) even when all the repairs were finished.

This is really perceptive. Frodo began by seeking to save the Shire and lure the Ringwraiths away from his home. He then volunteered and set out to save not just the Shire but all of Middle Earth. He does not turn back even when Sam glimpses evil happening in the Shire in Galadriel's mirror, they do not turn back. When they return to the Shire, they find that they failed to do what they set out to do.