The doom of the Ring

[Mithadan]

It is clear that Frodo did not have the will to destroy the Ring himself, particularly after the grueling journey to and into Mordor. By the time he stood at Sammath Naur, he had possessed the Ring for 17 years. Isildur, who possessed it for perhaps a matter of hours, could not be convinced to destroy it. What is remarkable is that Frodo had the will to even travel to Mount Doom with the intent to do away with the Ring. I have often wondered what Gandalf, who feared contact with the Ring himself, intended to do if he came to Mount Doom with Frodo. Surely he at least suspected that Frodo would have to be coerced or "assisted" to destroy the Ring.

Gollum's intervention, under the circumstances, was an ideal solution.

Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice. 'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom. The crouching shape backed away, terror in it's blinking eyes, and yet at the same time insatiable desire. Then the vision passed and Sam saw Frodo standing, hand on his breast, his breaths coming in great gasps , and Gollum at his feet, resting on his knees with his wide-splayed hands upon the ground.[...]

There is a substantial thread from about 5 (or more) years ago discussing this issue. (Found it. Here is the link http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ght=frodo+ring )In my view, Sam's "vision" was a manifestation of the Ring's power similar to what the Orcs saw when Sam was climbing the steps in the guard tower with the Ring. I have always believed the voice Sam heard was Frodo's amplified by the power of the Ring.

There is a viable argument that Gollum's death after his attack on Frodo was brought about by the Ring's power. Consider, Gollum swore to serve the master of the Ring. Frodo, knowing the potency and treacherous nature of the Ring warns Gollum that the Ring will hold him to his oath. Gollum violates the oath first by bringing Frodo to Shelob and again by attacking Frodo on Orodruin. Frodo's words are, in effect, a curse supported by the power of the Ring. When Gollum attacks Frodo again, the curse takes effect, perhaps amplified by Gollum's ultimate violation of his oath, the taking of the Ring, and is "cast" into the fire.

Or the event could be some manifestation of "Fate." Perhaps Tolkien was intentionally leaving this to interpretation.

Tolkien does repeatedly imply throughout LoTR (and in The Quest for Erebor) that the Ring has some degree of consciousness, sentience or self-will. The argument could also be made that Tolkien was being literal and that the Ring actually spoke (if so, wouldn't Tolkien have capitalized the word "me"?). I personally do not like that interpretation.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

There is a viable argument that Gollum's death after his attack on Frodo was brought about by the Ring's power. Consider, Gollum swore to serve the master of the Ring. Frodo, knowing the potency and treacherous nature of the Ring warns Gollum that the Ring will hold him to his oath. Gollum violates the oath first by bringing Frodo to Shelob and again by attacking Frodo on Orodruin. Frodo's words are, in effect, a curse supported by the power of the Ring. When Gollum attacks Frodo again, the curse takes effect, perhaps amplified by Gollum's ultimate violation of his oath, the taking of the Ring, and is "cast" into the fire.

Or the event could be some manifestation of "Fate." Perhaps Tolkien was intentionally leaving this to interpretation.

I found this theory interesting, Mithadan; but while I would think that Gollum happening to loose his footing and falling into the fire, just after having bitten the Ring finger of Frodo off his hand, might be some manifestation of 'Fate', I don't think the Ring did so on the grounds of Gollum being an oathbreaker twice, and Frodo's curse then taking effect.

If we look at the circumstances of Gollum's promise and his first breaking of it, he first swore by the Ring, after Frodo refused him permission to swear on it, pointing out, 'It will hold you. But it is more treacherous than you are. It may twist your words. Beware!'

Gollum set out what he was going to swear: 'To be very very good....Sméagol will swear never, never, never, to let Him have it. Never! Sméagol will save it'. He then wanted to swear on the Ring, which Frodo refused, instead saying he could swear by it, which Gollum did: 'I will serve the master of the Precious'.

Later, in Shelob's lair, Gollum attacked Sam and said, 'We takes this one! She'll get the other. O yes, Shelob will get him, not Sméagol: he promised; he won't hurt Master at all'.

Earlier, he had said to himself that he will 'save the Precious, as we promised. O yes'. And when he does so, he will 'pay everyone back!' including Shelob.

Looking at all this, I think it's clear that Gollum originally said he would swear not to let Sauron have the Ring, and to 'save' it. There's no doubt that he sincerely meant this, although saving it meant having it back in his possession. His promise to serve Frodo, including keeping him from harm, was kept from, to quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'a certain point of view', by letting someone else (Shelob) kill him, while he would deal with Sam, having made no promises to him.

While it's perfectly reasonable to ascribe Gollum's ambiguous oath and what he does with it to the influence of the Ring trying to get back to Sauron, Gollum could easily have done all this without any inducement whatsoever, due to his desire for the Ring. My opinion is that he fully realises what Frodo and Sam are trying to do but never say, to destroy the Ring. Why else would they be trying to get into Mordor with it, unless to surrender it to Sauron?

My view is that while the Ring could have certainly induced Gollum to bite the finger on which it was worn off Frodo's hand, in order for it to get back to Sauron, why would it cause him to fall; because it would certainly be destroyed in the fire, the last place it would want to go?

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

It is clear that Frodo did not have the will to destroy the Ring himself, particularly after the grueling journey to and into Mordor. By the time he stood at Sammath Naur, he had possessed the Ring for 17 years. Isildur, who possessed it for perhaps a matter of hours, could not be convinced to destroy it. What is remarkable is that Frodo had the will to even travel to Mount Doom with the intent to do away with the Ring. I have often wondered what Gandalf, who feared contact with the Ring himself, intended to do if he came to Mount Doom with Frodo. Surely he at least suspected that Frodo would have to be coerced or "assisted" to destroy the Ring.

That's a good question. We can say for certain that Gandalf must have known that Frodo would have a very hard time to fulfill his duty. Gandalf witnessed how Frodo was unable to throw the Ring into his fireplace back home at Bag-End. How could he reasonably expect that Frodo would be able to do so at the cracks of doom, in the heart of Sauron's domain.