The doom of the Ring

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Leaf

I created this thread to discuss a thought (or two) about the doom of the Ring. Let's begin with a very brief summery of the events that let to the destruction of the One Ring:

Frodo and Sam succeed in bringing the Ring to the right location, Mount Doom. They overcome many obstacles and are at their physical and psychological limit. Frodo fails to do the deed and claims the Ring of Power to himself. 'Luckily' Gollum appears in the nick of time to take the Ring from Frodo and then, again 'luckily' (in sort of a morbid way), destroys the Ring (and himself) seemingly by accident. Middle-Earth is saved.

I interpret Frodo's failure to be inevitable. I don't think any other being, or 'person', would have been able to destroy the Ring of Power willingly. Maybe with the exception of Tom Bombadil, but I won't dive into this topic right now. As I see it, the person who destroys the ring willingly, at the cracks of Mt. Doom, would have to be a person who rejects the very possibility of any kind of influence to the world around him, a person without any interest in his own fate and in the fate of others. The problem is that this 'being' would be, essentialy, an 'un-person'. So, I don't put any blame on Frodo. I think his decision, if you could call it that way, is very understandable in the given situation.

It's necessary to stress that Frodo's actual achievements are different from that. He made it to Mt. Doom and brought the Ring to the right place. A indispensable requirement for the destruction of the Ring. He also, against his initial attitude, didn't kill off Gollum and, more so, allowed him to accompany him. This was, in hindsight, the second requirement, as Gandalf vaguely (and wisely) predicted.

Now, there's one quote from the relevant chapter that irks me every time I read it:



How literal can we take Sam's vision?! Did the Ring really speak to Gollum, or was this just Sam's imagination? Those questions are highly debatable. But let's just assume, for the following thought, that it was indeed the voice of the Ring of Power. The thing that irks me is that the Ring's verdict (or doom) towards Gollum comes true. Gollum dares to touch the thing again and is cast into the Fire of Doom. This includes, ironically, the Ring itself.

Here comes, finally, my question to you: Do you think that it's plausible to say that the Ring, due to his very nature, settled his own doom? Is evil, with it's inherent immutable determination and fatalism eventually disadvantaged?! In the end it was Gandalf's way of thinking that saved the day. Frodo took his careful indecision towards Gollum to heart and, "irrationally", trusted this advice. The Ring itself, on the other hand, condemned Gollum beyond a doubt and issued a non-revocable death sentence, so to speak.

I have never been able to be precise and prescriptive about Tolkien's ideas about the nature of evil. I can get at it by 'vibe', as apparent in Nazgul-ian screeching, Ungoliant's Unlight and how it clothed or hides or is an impenetrable screen. I struggle with its notion with Orcs, which are basically, boorish, under-socialised beings but that lack the trappings of vanity in how we know them, and yet are innately sadistic (innate? I'm not sure how far one could get with rearing them differently). This does not seem really Evil, but perhaps only evil, or merely, just a variation on an animal kingdom to me. Sentient beings that purposefully inflict pain upon others - that to me, is not really 'magically' evil, but more about narcissism, perhaps, or perhaps not even that.

Sauronic evil in Necromancy (Wights, the men of Carn Dum whose powers waxed over winter when it was darker longer) is some kind of perversion of the Word - Ea. I recently waded through letters for a particular cause (another thread) and found what I was looking for (for another topic) which overlaps with this topic.

Tolkien was devoutely Christian. His notions of Satanic evil are implicated in the mythology. This is done tacitly, not explicitly though. This does bear upon what -- again -- I saw in your quote. That stuff about 'lust and greed', and Sauronic E-vil. We saw that at the Sammath Naur when the Ring Spell was completed. We see it in a number of citations, and Annatar, who 'seduced' (again, Tolkien's notions of some kind of sexual or non-sexual seduction) the Noldor.

Greed, lust, and power were the hallarks of the Nine's racial 'signature' whereas 'lust for gold' was the Dwarven variant. And The Three - untouched, but Sauron 'seduced' the Noldor through their pursuit of knowledge (and it is interesting that Sauron was a Maia of Aule's emphasis/portfolio - crafting/knowledge. And the Noldor were, I suppose, closest to Aule c.f. the other two Eldar branches.

Evil in Tolkienian rendition also has the egocentric blinding that limits sight for cause/action/alliancing through the Love/Empathy spectrum of wisdom, foresight, interactions, hindsight and remedy. The egocentrism of Sauronic purpose, so inflated that the narcissism he could make 'contagious' or 'force it into' another by 'possession' or 'seduction/greed appeals'.

Inherently, Tolkien also had an insight about possessiveness, control, and attachment to ownership in all its forms as a root cause? pathway? to Evil (not evil).

So - yes - Evil's inevitable blinding to Love's/Empathy's remedies -- dooms -- Sauronic narcissism. But, as we know, there was also 'Eru-ian' or 'Valar-ian' unspoken influences in events beyond the reach and touch of Sauron.

I just read excerpts about The Quest for Erebor in Unfinished Tales (UT), which reminded me again, that "...Bilbo was meant..." to find the Ring. Frodo was "...meant..." to receive it, but it was not Sauron who chose the finder.

The Erebor transcripts then moved into Gandalf's pre- and post-Zirak Zikil (Zoro-Zumm Zumm - or whatever it is ) thoughts about what "...meant..." meant.

Pre- Zouch Zumm Zumm, he felt something down deep in instinct of heart about "...meant..." and post Zumissh Zoo Zat, he had conscious Lore of Olorin that he reserved from his little chat with Gilmi Merry and Pippin in Minath Anor after the Ring was destroyed.

That chat re-stated stuff about 'Evil's blindness' and the Sauronic Eye and the failure of the Evil being to imagine that anyone would want to, or could, destroy the Ring. Inevitable? Here's the funny thing. Similarly, all Good realms end, as well. All things must pass.

So, as always, the good ole ambiguity of Tolkien-ian Lore resurfaces in the final analysis.

[Faramir Jones]

You started a very interesting thread, Leaf. For those of us interested in discussing the doom of the Ring, Tolkien discussed at length the failure of Frodo to surrender the Ring in Mount Doom, in drafts of a reply to a Mrs. Eileen Edgar of around September 1963, Letter 246 of his published Letters.

He first talked about Frodo's failure:

I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted.

He then spoke about Sam's failure to 'notice the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect'. While Sam 'did reach the point of pity at last', deciding not to kill Gollum, for the latter's good it was 'too late'.

He then moved to discussing what might have happened had Sam not spoken harshly to Gollum:

The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both.

At some point 'not long before the end', he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence. But once he did this, Gollum would then 'have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss'.

His 'partial regeneration by love' would have given him 'a clearer vision when he claimed the Ring'. He would have perceived the evil of Sauron and 'suddenly realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or stature to keep it in Sauron's despite'. The only way to keep it and hurt Sauron was 'to destroy it and himself together'.

So Tolkien's view was that in this scenario Gollum would still have died; but he would have done so as a voluntary act, to ensure that, whatever happened, Sauron would not have the One Ring.

Tolkien then looked at Frodo. If the latter had not been 'immediately attacked' by Gollum, once he took the Ring and claimed it, he 'too would have had a clear vision'. Frodo, if not attacked, would 'probably have had to take the same way', casting himself with the Ring into the abyss. If not, 'he would of course have completely failed'.

Tolkien then said that 'an interesting problem' would be how Sauron would have reacted or if the claimant had resisted. Sauron sent the Ringwraiths. Frodo, since Weathertop, had 'grown'. Tolkien first posed this question: 'Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?'

To that question he gave this answer:

Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still acted through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack.

Once Frodo lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, 'the end could not be in doubt'.

The situation of Frodo with the 8 Ringwraiths 'might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades'.

The weapon was such that the Ringwraiths were conditioned to treat its weilder with servility. In terms of what what they would have done:

I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Nur - for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance.

Frodo would have been 'too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule', which would have been 'far greater and wider' than Sam's 'to heed this'. If he had refused now to go with them to the Dark Tower, 'they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came'.

We have a clear account of alternative scenarios by the author himself. 1. If Gollum had improved, due to Sam not speaking harshly to him when seeing him close to his sleeping master; 2. If Frodo had not been immediately attacked by Gollum; 3. If Frodo had 'completely failed', and persisted in claiming the Ring.

[Mithadan]

It is clear that Frodo did not have the will to destroy the Ring himself, particularly after the grueling journey to and into Mordor. By the time he stood at Sammath Naur, he had possessed the Ring for 17 years. Isildur, who possessed it for perhaps a matter of hours, could not be convinced to destroy it. What is remarkable is that Frodo had the will to even travel to Mount Doom with the intent to do away with the Ring. I have often wondered what Gandalf, who feared contact with the Ring himself, intended to do if he came to Mount Doom with Frodo. Surely he at least suspected that Frodo would have to be coerced or "assisted" to destroy the Ring.

Gollum's intervention, under the circumstances, was an ideal solution.

Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice. 'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom. The crouching shape backed away, terror in it's blinking eyes, and yet at the same time insatiable desire. Then the vision passed and Sam saw Frodo standing, hand on his breast, his breaths coming in great gasps , and Gollum at his feet, resting on his knees with his wide-splayed hands upon the ground.[...]

There is a substantial thread from about 5 (or more) years ago discussing this issue. (Found it. Here is the link http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ght=frodo+ring )In my view, Sam's "vision" was a manifestation of the Ring's power similar to what the Orcs saw when Sam was climbing the steps in the guard tower with the Ring. I have always believed the voice Sam heard was Frodo's amplified by the power of the Ring.

There is a viable argument that Gollum's death after his attack on Frodo was brought about by the Ring's power. Consider, Gollum swore to serve the master of the Ring. Frodo, knowing the potency and treacherous nature of the Ring warns Gollum that the Ring will hold him to his oath. Gollum violates the oath first by bringing Frodo to Shelob and again by attacking Frodo on Orodruin. Frodo's words are, in effect, a curse supported by the power of the Ring. When Gollum attacks Frodo again, the curse takes effect, perhaps amplified by Gollum's ultimate violation of his oath, the taking of the Ring, and is "cast" into the fire.

Or the event could be some manifestation of "Fate." Perhaps Tolkien was intentionally leaving this to interpretation.

Tolkien does repeatedly imply throughout LoTR (and in The Quest for Erebor) that the Ring has some degree of consciousness, sentience or self-will. The argument could also be made that Tolkien was being literal and that the Ring actually spoke (if so, wouldn't Tolkien have capitalized the word "me"?). I personally do not like that interpretation.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

There is a viable argument that Gollum's death after his attack on Frodo was brought about by the Ring's power. Consider, Gollum swore to serve the master of the Ring. Frodo, knowing the potency and treacherous nature of the Ring warns Gollum that the Ring will hold him to his oath. Gollum violates the oath first by bringing Frodo to Shelob and again by attacking Frodo on Orodruin. Frodo's words are, in effect, a curse supported by the power of the Ring. When Gollum attacks Frodo again, the curse takes effect, perhaps amplified by Gollum's ultimate violation of his oath, the taking of the Ring, and is "cast" into the fire.

Or the event could be some manifestation of "Fate." Perhaps Tolkien was intentionally leaving this to interpretation.

I found this theory interesting, Mithadan; but while I would think that Gollum happening to loose his footing and falling into the fire, just after having bitten the Ring finger of Frodo off his hand, might be some manifestation of 'Fate', I don't think the Ring did so on the grounds of Gollum being an oathbreaker twice, and Frodo's curse then taking effect.

If we look at the circumstances of Gollum's promise and his first breaking of it, he first swore by the Ring, after Frodo refused him permission to swear on it, pointing out, 'It will hold you. But it is more treacherous than you are. It may twist your words. Beware!'

Gollum set out what he was going to swear: 'To be very very good....Sméagol will swear never, never, never, to let Him have it. Never! Sméagol will save it'. He then wanted to swear on the Ring, which Frodo refused, instead saying he could swear by it, which Gollum did: 'I will serve the master of the Precious'.

Later, in Shelob's lair, Gollum attacked Sam and said, 'We takes this one! She'll get the other. O yes, Shelob will get him, not Sméagol: he promised; he won't hurt Master at all'.

Earlier, he had said to himself that he will 'save the Precious, as we promised. O yes'. And when he does so, he will 'pay everyone back!' including Shelob.

Looking at all this, I think it's clear that Gollum originally said he would swear not to let Sauron have the Ring, and to 'save' it. There's no doubt that he sincerely meant this, although saving it meant having it back in his possession. His promise to serve Frodo, including keeping him from harm, was kept from, to quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'a certain point of view', by letting someone else (Shelob) kill him, while he would deal with Sam, having made no promises to him.

While it's perfectly reasonable to ascribe Gollum's ambiguous oath and what he does with it to the influence of the Ring trying to get back to Sauron, Gollum could easily have done all this without any inducement whatsoever, due to his desire for the Ring. My opinion is that he fully realises what Frodo and Sam are trying to do but never say, to destroy the Ring. Why else would they be trying to get into Mordor with it, unless to surrender it to Sauron?

My view is that while the Ring could have certainly induced Gollum to bite the finger on which it was worn off Frodo's hand, in order for it to get back to Sauron, why would it cause him to fall; because it would certainly be destroyed in the fire, the last place it would want to go?

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

It is clear that Frodo did not have the will to destroy the Ring himself, particularly after the grueling journey to and into Mordor. By the time he stood at Sammath Naur, he had possessed the Ring for 17 years. Isildur, who possessed it for perhaps a matter of hours, could not be convinced to destroy it. What is remarkable is that Frodo had the will to even travel to Mount Doom with the intent to do away with the Ring. I have often wondered what Gandalf, who feared contact with the Ring himself, intended to do if he came to Mount Doom with Frodo. Surely he at least suspected that Frodo would have to be coerced or "assisted" to destroy the Ring.

That's a good question. We can say for certain that Gandalf must have known that Frodo would have a very hard time to fulfill his duty. Gandalf witnessed how Frodo was unable to throw the Ring into his fireplace back home at Bag-End. How could he reasonably expect that Frodo would be able to do so at the cracks of doom, in the heart of Sauron's domain.