Who are the 'wild men'?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Knowing a king of Rohan once insulted one of their kin and punched him to death probably helped as well.

So much so that Dunlending mothers sent their children to bed with the stern admonition: "Better be good or Helm the Hammerhand will get ye if ye don't watch out!"

[Faramir Jones]

According to Appendix A of LotR, after the death of his last surviving son:

Helm grew fierce and gaunt for famine and grief, and the dread of him alone was worth many men in the defence of the Burg. He would go out by himself, clad in white, and stalk like a snow-troll into the camps of his enemies, and slay many men with his hands. It was believed that if he bore no weapon no weapon would bite on him. The Dunlendings said that if he could find no food he ate men. That tale lasted long in Dunland.

I agree with you, Morthoron, that Dunlending mothers would calm down their children with that admonition; but they would also make very clear that Helm ate naughty children.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

According to Appendix A of LotR, after the death of his last surviving son:

Helm grew fierce and gaunt for famine and grief, and the dread of him alone was worth many men in the defence of the Burg. He would go out by himself, clad in white, and stalk like a snow-troll into the camps of his enemies, and slay many men with his hands. It was believed that if he bore no weapon no weapon would bite on him. The Dunlendings said that if he could find no food he ate men. That tale lasted long in Dunland.

Lovely find, Faramir! It also connects nicely to the Dunlendings' reaction to Erkenbrand's speech in which he grants them mercy after the Battle of the Hornburg:

"The men of Dunland were amazed, for Saruman had told them that the men of Rohan were cruel and burned their captives alive."

Relating back to my first post, here's a useful statement from Unfinished Tales regarding Gondor's attitude to the Dunlendings:

"Above all, the eyes of Gondor had ever been eastward, whence all their perils came; the enmity of the "wild" Dunlendings seemed of small account to the Stewards."

So it seems that they didn't give them much thought either way, which would presumably contribute to why a situation arose in which the Dunlendings felt that Calenardhon had been "stolen" by the Eorlingas: Cirion probably didn't even think of them or factor them into his considerations.

They also seemingly profited little from the period in which Durin's Folk dwelt in Dunland in exile, as by the time of the Battle of the Fords of Isen they generally lacked armour; they couldn't wear Orc armour as it didn't fit. By contrast, the armour of the Men of Rohan was made for them by the Men of Gondor. Presumably when the Dwarves lived in exile in Dunland it was to avoid, in their pride, having to live in the lands of other "civilised" people. Instead they retreated to a lightly-populated area (Dunland does not seem to me to be a very densely populated place) and perhaps had little to no contact with the Men in the vicinity. Then again, I can imagine that they probably traded with the Dunlendings for food, but probably did not trade weapons or armour. Dunland was perhaps a place where they could live in some peace and quiet and trade for their survival without the "shame" and (perceived) indignity of living such a life of exile among more "civilised" people with more established homes.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In the books, the 'wild men' who serve Saruman are the Dunlendings, Men who inhabited Dunland, the region to the North of Rohan. They did live in "Rohan", or Calenardhon as it was then known, before the Éothéod (as the Men of Rohan were then known) came, but they effectively seem to have lived there as "squatters": although the Men of Gondor didn't really live there, Calenardhon/Rohan was technically the property of the Kingdom of Gondor and the wild men seem to have lived there without any real permission.

Were they squatters or were they the closest we could come to the original inhabitants of the area?

Originally Posted by Zigûr

They also seemingly profited little from the period in which Durin's Folk dwelt in Dunland in exile, as by the time of the Battle of the Fords of Isen they generally lacked armour; they couldn't wear Orc armour as it didn't fit. By contrast, the armour of the Men of Rohan was made for them by the Men of Gondor. Presumably when the Dwarves lived in exile in Dunland it was to avoid, in their pride, having to live in the lands of other "civilised" people. Instead they retreated to a lightly-populated area (Dunland does not seem to me to be a very densely populated place) and perhaps had little to no contact with the Men in the vicinity. Then again, I can imagine that they probably traded with the Dunlendings for food, but probably did not trade weapons or armour. Dunland was perhaps a place where they could live in some peace and quiet and trade for their survival without the "shame" and (perceived) indignity of living such a life of exile among more "civilised" people with more established homes.

It seems to me that somewhere Dunland was described as having little in the way of mineral resources, but I can't seem to find it. However, if that was the case it could be that was the reason why. The Longbeards may have gone there to try to start fresh with some nearby humans (a method that had worked well in the past) but the colony failed because of lack of mineral wealth and so the Longbeards moved on.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Were they squatters or were they the closest we could come to the original inhabitants of the area?

It's a good question, especially if things are traced back to the Second Age and the Dark Years. I was merely using the term through the lens of Gondor's "ownership" of Calenardhon in a legal sense - an ownership no other inhabitants were ever consulted on, I suspect.

[Elmo]

The Dunlendings were the indigenous population of the area and the rightful owners of Calenardhon, they were there long before the Numenorians fell out of the sea onto the land. The Rohirrim were a colonial, interloping, land thieving population 'planted' by Gondor on Dunlending territory for military reasons, similar to what the British Empire did in various times and places in history. The Dunlendings were definitely right to be a bit annoyed about this and can hardly be blamed for their hatred of the horse folk, especially as countless of them were cruelly slain by the Rohan's kings like Helm Hammerhand who brutally murdered many of them like Freca.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm not entirely sure whether the Dunlendings were the indigenous population of Calenarhon, as opposed to Dunland; the description of Rohan, very steppe-like, doesn't sound to me like a place where anyone other than nomadic herdsmen could live. In "Cirion and Eorl" the place is described as unpopulated; and the one specific place we are told that there was a Dunlendish settlement was the Ring of Isengard, which they surely had no claim to.

The Dunlendings' alleged grievance might have been a piece of Sarumanic propaganda. Or maybe not: but Tolkien on the whole, in both his fiction and his letters, seems to be very much opposed to imperialism, including the British Empire. It would be surprising to me if he had not made more explicit the legitimacy of the Dunlendings' complaint if it had any, as he certainly did with regard to the Woses.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Elmo

The Dunlendings were the indigenous population of the area and the rightful owners of Calenardhon, they were there long before the Numenorians fell out of the sea onto the land. The Rohirrim were a colonial, interloping, land thieving population 'planted' by Gondor on Dunlending territory for military reasons, similar to what the British Empire did in various times and places in history. The Dunlendings were definitely right to be a bit annoyed about this and can hardly be blamed for their hatred of the horse folk, especially as countless of them were cruelly slain by the Rohan's kings like Helm Hammerhand who brutally murdered many of them like Freca.

I'm in agreement with this. And I think it's a brave post because it's not as permissive of Numenorean legacy and will be less popular an idea because of that (possibly).

When I first read LotR and the histories, I simply accepted that Numerean precedent founded on ideas about a 'chosen' people (and Tolkien chose terms like 'fairer' or 'sea grey eyes, fair skin and dark hair'). I've grown to realise that Numenorean imperialism, like any kind, disrupts culture, presumes authority, is ethnocentric and incites hatred.

It's only recently that I've come to accept that grievances over territorial ownership would have stirred great wrath in peoples with claims to lands of greater length of years. I understand the Dunlending position more because of this.

I also understand that Tharbad allied itself with Sauron in SA (or allowed Sauron passage) during the sack of the Mirdain, but this reminds me that Numenor was an imperialist, expansionalist power that claimed sovereignty 'because it could' (ie power- and Arnor/Gondor TA came 'afterwards'). I wonder if Tharbad was suspicious of Eregion and of the wealth and splendour of the Ost In Edhil. Well, in a way, they were correct. After all, the Ring haunted Middle Earth for another 3000 years after this and it was the Noldorin susceptibility to Evil by Saurnonic seduction (Annatar) that brought Sauron to the Ost In Edhil in the first place. Thus, (reasoning 'as though' we were of Tharbad for the time), those Elves cooked up that stupid magic stuff and that Annatar is coming to level them. So be it. We never liked that Celebrimbor anyway. He was rude. So there! His head's on a pike for his Elvish greed.

So, I imagine that Tharbad was wary of the rise of power of the Mirdain and of the somewhat 'off colour' influence of the Elves over this region. Celebrimbor, being Noldorin, a grandson of that spoilt brat Feanor brought memory of the blood feud and a curse to the whole area. Not to mention the broodings in the subtext in tensions between Galadriel, her allies and those of the Feanoreans (Galadriel was more aligned with the Teleri in the kinslaying). On a personal note - I have empathy for Celebrimbor. He tried very hard to repair his family's legacy and he strove to win Galadriel).

I don't see Rohan or Gondor or Arnor as legitimate 'owners' of Cardolan, Calenardhon, Rhun or any other part of the regions. They overreached and took no heed of prior people's presence. So, long-term grievances and wars over territory are expected. The human territorial instinct is strong and especially so when land ownership/access equates to 'survival' needs.