Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Do you see anythink speaking against Lungorthin being still valid? As yet nobody here spoke up with such a reason against the passage including him.

No, but I always want to double-check the concepts in such early stages of development.

[Aiwendil]

I'm going to post my notes on the Narn text in this thread, even though they apply to the whole text, not just the section on Turin's fostering. Hopefully that doesn't cause too much confusion.

Looking at these notes again, I see that I had intended to take a more detailed look at the "Union of Maedhros" section, since I note that I see some problems with it but don't go into specifics. So looking at that section again is something I will try to do.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Introduction:

Some of the changes here, made in order to eliminate Aelfwine, seem a bit tortured to me now. What about this:

But should perhaps the whole translator conceit here be removed along with Aelfwine?

'Of the Union of Maedhros': This section suffers from confusions and redundancies as a result of having been put together from multiple texts.

NA-EX-40.4: Typo in the footnote: ‘turture’ for ‘torture’.

NA-RG-29: Here the revision places alliteration on the last stress of the line, which is not allowed (even though it is an 'accidental' alliteration, as it were):

We could simply transpose the half-lines:

In the Finduilas/Gwindor/Turin section there seems to be a lot of redundancy between the prose and verse passages. The information in lines 2173-2212 of the lay is partially repeated in the prose paragraph from the Narn that follows (NA-EX-53); and the prose paragraphs that follow are then partially repeated in the lay extract 2213-2260.

NA-TI-28: The text here follows the QS77, which here is the same as CoH. Presumably, this text comes from the Narn manuscripts. But GA gives a slightly longer speech to Turin here (section 271), and we ought at least to consider whether to take it up:

Since the Narn material for this section is not in finished form, one might suppose that what we have here is omission rather than rejection. (I should admit that personally, I prefer the GA version since it clarifies Turin's attitude toward Finduilas and adds a certain poignancy, but of course that's neither here nor there).

We also miss the statement in GA section 272 (which was taken up in the QS77) that Orodreth gives Turin greater honour when he learns his identity.

NA-EX-55: Missing an apostrophe; also, unnecessary capitalization:

Should be:

NA-EX-58:

In taking this sentence from the Narn appendix, we have lost the antecedent of the 'it' that Glaurung wants to rid Turin of the aid of. I suppose one could construe ‘its’ as referring ahead to ‘his helm’, but this seems a little awkward. Also, I think that since Glaurung has just been named, it would be best to omit his name the second time:

Confused:

Should be:

[Findegil]

Introduction: I like your version, but why skip 'modern' and the part about the analphabetic use of English? I don't think we should skip this completly. What we edit is english and our readers are english speakers, so why we should skip this?

NA-EX-40.4: Corrected.

NA-RG-29: Your version reads good.

Finduilas/Gwindor/Turin: I do not agree that all the passages you mentioned are redundant. Some parts my be but not everything in it. It would be good if you could be more specific.

NA-TI-28: I agree to use GA here. But I we have taken the statement of Orodreth giving Túrin more honore when he learned his Identity:

NA-TI-28 <QS77 But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name.'>
NA-TI-29c <QS77 When it became known to Orodreth that the Mormegil was in truth the son of Húrin Thalion he gave him great honour, and Túrin became mighty among the people of Nargothrond. But {he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open; and his counsels weighed with the King ever the longer the more.
In those days the Elves of Nargothrond forsook their secrecy and went openly to battle, and great store of weapons were made; and by the counsel of Túrin the Noldor built a mighty bridge over the Narog from the Doors of Felagund, for the swifter passage of their arms. Then the servants of Angband were driven out of all the land between Narog and Sirion eastward, and westward to the Nenning and the desolate Falas; and though Gwindor spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, holding it an ill policy, he fell into dishonour and none heeded him, for his strength was small and he was no longer forward in arms. Thus Nargothrond was revealed to the wrath and hatred of Morgoth; but }still at Túrin's prayer his true name was not spoken, and though the fame of his deeds came into Doriath and to the ears of Thingol, rumour spoke only of the Black Sword of Nargothrond.

NA-EX-55: I can no longer find this, so it seems we have eliminated this change and the passage you mention.

NA-EX-58: Why not insert the Dragon-helm?

Then Túrin sprang about, and strode against him, <CoH and fire was in his eyes, >and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame{; but}<CoH . But> Glaurung withheld his blast, and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Túrin. And NA-EX-58 <Ap Narn {and Glaurung}, desiring to rid Túrin of {its}the aid[u] of the Dragon-Helm[/b] and protection (since he himself feared it), taunted him, saying that surely Túrin claimed to be his vassal and retainer, since he bore his master's likeness on the crest of his helm.

But Túrin never has seen his sister Nienor in our version. Therefor I would edit:

And if thou tarry for Finduilas, then never shalt thou see Morwen again, and never at all shalt thou see Niënor thy sister{<CoH again>}; and they will curse thee.'

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Introduction: I like your version, but why skip 'modern' and the part about the analphabetic use of English? I don't think we should skip this completly. What we edit is english and our readers are english speakers, so why we should skip this?

In Tolkien's text, there is an intermediate stage in Old English between the Elvish and the modern form we have. It seems pretty clear to me that the reference to modern English is only there to distinguish it from the Old English version of Aelfwine. If the translation is directly from Elvish to English, there's no reason to say 'modern' at all. To make an analogy, one would speak of translating something from, for example, "German to English" - one wouldn't say "German to modern English", because "English" with no qualifier, and no context, implies modern English.

The other phrase here, "that is forms of English intelligible to living users of the English tongue (who have some knowledge of letters, and are not limited to the language of daily use from mouth to mouth)", is an explanation of the word 'modern' for a non-linguistic audience. That is, Tolkien is explaining that he doesn't mean "modern" in the sense of current slang, but "modern" in the sense of English that is intelligible to living, literate, speakers.

Originally Posted by Findegil

Finduilas/Gwindor/Turin: I do not agree that all the passages you mentioned are redundant. Some parts my be but not everything in it. It would be good if you could be more specific.

I'll have to review this again. It was years ago that I wrote these notes.

NA-TI-28: I agree to use GA here. But I we have taken the statement of Orodreth giving Túrin more honore when he learned his Identity:

Ah, I must have missed that. Thanks for pointing it out.

NA-EX-58: Why not insert the Dragon-helm?

Yes, looking at this again I do think the Dragon-helm needs to be explicitly mentioned. I'd edit it slightly differently, though:

Then Túrin sprang about, and strode against him, <CoH and fire was in his eyes, >and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame{; but}<CoH . But> Glaurung withheld his blast, and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Túrin. And NA-EX-58 <Ap Narn {and Glaurung}, desiring to rid Túrin of {its}the aid and protection of the Dragon-helm (since he himself feared it), taunted him, saying that surely Túrin claimed to be his vassal and retainer, since he bore his master's likeness on the crest of his helm.

But Túrin never has seen his sister Nienor in our version. Therefor I would edit:

Yes, I'm not quite sure what I was thinking here. I agree with your edit.

[Aiwendil]

I've reviewed the "Union of Maedros" section. Hopefully my suggestions below are clear; if not, I can provide my full proposed text for this section in the private forum.

So the days passed and the shadow of the fear of Morgoth lenghtened.> <GA {In this}[But in due] time {Maidros}[Maeðros] began those counsels for the raising of the fortunes of the Eldar that are called the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros]. For new hope ran through the land, {because of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien,} and it seemed to many that Morgoth was not unconquerable, and that fear only gave him his power.> NA-EX-09 <QS37 {But in those days}[Thus] {Maidros}[Maeðros] son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make a new league and common council. Therefore he planned the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros], and he planned wisely.>

Here, the two sentences from GA are redundant - in spirit and purport if not literally - with the fuller statement that follows from QS37, and it reads very poorly in my opinion. I would remove the insertion from GA almost entirely; I think there is only one small piece of it which contains anything not explicit or implicit in the QS37 text:

So the days passed and the shadow of the fear of Morgoth lenghtened.> NA-EX-09 <QS37 {But in those days}[Thus] {Maidros}[Maeðros] son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable <GAand that fear only gave him his power>; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make a new league and common council. Therefore he planned the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros], and he planned wisely.>

Above, I’ve also fixed a typo: “lenghtened” for “lenghtened”.

However, there is also a mostly redundant passage to the same effect from the Narn which is used a bit later in this text. I think it should be removed from that location and, as the latest version of this passage, should probably be used here:

So the days passed and the shadow of the fear of Morgoth lenghtened.> NA-EX-09 <QS37 {But in those days}[Thus] {Maidros}[Maeðros] son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable <GAand that fear only gave him his power>; {for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand.} <Narn for the rumour ran among them of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien, and the putting to shame of Morgoth even upon his throne in Angband, and some said that Beren and Lúthien yet lived, or had returned from the Dead.> Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make a new league and common council. Therefore he planned the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros], and he planned wisely.>

<QS The treacherous shaft of Curufin that wounded Beren was remembered among Men. Therefore{ of} the folk of Haleth that dwelt in Brethil{ only the half came forth, and they} went not to join {Maidros}[Maeðros], but came rather to Fingon{ and Turgon} in the West.>

This immediately follows a passage from GA telling of the preparations of the folk of Haleth for battle, and I think in the new context it requires an adversative at the beginning:

<QS But {t}he treacherous shaft of Curufin that wounded Beren was remembered among Men. Therefore{ of} the folk of Haleth that dwelt in Brethil{ only the half came forth, and they} went not to join {Maidros}[Maeðros], but came rather to Fingon{ and Turgon} in the West.>

{But}Thus in the four hundred and sixty-ninth year after the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth there was a stirring of hope among Elves and Men

I think that with the additions preceding this, a new paragraph is called for at the start of this sentence.

{But}Thus in the four hundred and sixty-ninth year after the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth there was a stirring of hope among Elves and Men; for the rumour ran among them of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien, and the putting to shame of Morgoth even upon his throne in Angband, and some said that Beren and Lúthien yet lived, or had returned from the Dead.

As mentioned above, this, from the Narn, is largely redundant with the equivalent statement from QS37, which has already been used above (NA-EX-09). At any rate, we should not talk about the new hope due to the deeds of Beren and Luthien twice. I would use this earlier, as I mentioned, and here I would just do:

{But} [I]n the four hundred and sixty-ninth year after the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth {there was a stirring of hope among Elves and Men; for the rumour ran among them of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien, and the putting to shame of Morgoth even upon his throne in Angband, and some said that Beren and Lúthien yet lived, or had returned from the Dead. In that year also} the great counsels of {Maedhros}[Maeðros] were almost complete, and {with the reviving strength of the Eldar and the Edain the advance of Morgoth was stayed, and the Orcs were driven back from Beleriand.}

I would also start a new paragraph at the beginning of the above quoted part.

for the faithless men of his secret allegiance were yet deep in the secrets of Fëanor's sons. >Then some began to speak of victories to come, and of redressing the Battle of the Bragollach, when {Maedhros}[Maeðros] should lead forth the united hosts, and drive Morgoth underground, and seal the Doors of Angband.
But the wiser were uneasy still, fearing that {Maedhros}[Maeðros] revealed his growing strength too soon

I think the paragraph break should be at the beginning of this section, not before the “But”:

for the faithless men of his secret allegiance were yet deep in the secrets of Fëanor's sons. >
Then some began to speak of victories to come, and of redressing the Battle of the Bragollach, when {Maedhros}[Maeðros] should lead forth the united hosts, and drive Morgoth underground, and seal the Doors of Angband. But the wiser were uneasy still, fearing that {Maedhros}[Maeðros] revealed his growing strength too soon

[Aiwendil]

One miscellaneous typo:

‘Your words are {unwise} NA-EX-27.12 <CoH too proud>,’ said Mablung, though {in his heart he felt pity for Túrin. ‘}<CoH he pitied the young man. ‘Learn wisadom!>

Typo - “wisadom” for “wisdom”.

On the Turin/Gwindor/Finduilas material - I’ve just realized that I was working from an old version of the text here. Indeed, it seems I had already brought up my issues with repetitions between the prose and verse (see here) and the passages had already been re-arranged to improve this. I’ve re-read the section and found a few typos, but only two spots where I still think we have a redundancy stemming from multiple sources.

Because of his powers and his skill in warfare with Orcs Túrin found favour with Orodreth, and was admitted to his council. Now Túrin had no liking for the manner of fighting of the Elves of Nargothrond, of ambush and stealth andsecret arrow, and hr urged that it be abandoned, and that they should use their strength to attackthe servants of the Enemy, to open battle and pursuit.>

Typo: missing a space in “attackthe”.

<CoH had had a plimps of the power of Morgoth, and had some inkling>

Typo: “plimps” for “glimpse”.

<CoH {As}as its north march Nargothrond now held the ‘Debatable Land’ about the sources od Ginglith and Narog

Typo: “od” for “of”

{and though }Gwindor{ spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, holding it an ill policy, he} fell into dishonour{ and none heeded him}, for {his strength was small and }he was no longer forward in arms. Thus Nargothrond was revealed to the wrath and hatred of Morgoth; but still at Túrin's prayer his true name was not spoken, and though the fame of his deeds came into Doriath and to the ears of Thingol, rumour spoke only of the Black Sword of Nargothrond.} NA-EX-51.1 <CoH , and his strength was small; and the pain of his maimed left arm was often upon him

I think there is a { missing here. Should it be:

{and though }Gwindor{ spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, holding it an ill policy, he} fell into dishonour{ and none heeded him}, for {his strength was small and }he was no longer forward in arms. {Thus Nargothrond was revealed to the wrath and hatred of Morgoth; but still at Túrin's prayer his true name was not spoken, and though the fame of his deeds came into Doriath and to the ears of Thingol, rumour spoke only of the Black Sword of Nargothrond.} NA-EX-51.1 <CoH , and his strength was small; and the pain of his maimed left arm was often upon him

NA-TI-27 <Sil77 Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but Túrin did not perceive what had befallen. And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent. But Gwindor sat in dark thought NA-EX-53.7 <CoH , and he cursed Morgoth who could thus pursue his enemies with woe, withersoever they might run.

The first two sentences here repeat what was just told, much more fully, in the Narn material. I would delete them, and change the conjunction that follows:

NA-TI-27 <Sil77 {Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but Túrin did not perceive what had befallen. And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent. But}Thus Gwindor sat in dark thought NA-EX-53.7 <CoH , and he cursed Morgoth who could thus pursue his enemies with woe, withersoever they might run.

And going to Finduials he said to her:

Typo: “Finduials” for “Finduilas”.

Then Finduilas sat long in thought; but at the last she said only: 'Túrin son of Húrin loves me not; nor will.'>
NA-EX-53.8 <CoH Then {Finduials}she rose, and queenly indeed she looked.> NA-EX-54 <Ap Narn ‘Your eyes are dimmed, Gwindor,’ she said. ‘You do not see or understand what is here come to pass. Must I now be put to double shame to reveal the truth to you? For I love you, Gwindor, and I am ashamed that I love you not more, but have taken a love even greater, from which I cannot escape. I did not seek it, and long I put it aside. But I have pity for your hurts, have pity on mine. Túrin loves me not; nor will.’

Here we repeat Finduilas’s statement that “Turin loves me not”; we must remove one of them. The second instance is crucial to the logic of the dialogue, so I think we must remove the first, though we can take from CoH the “son of Hurin” to refer back to Gwindor’s revalation of his lineage.

Then Finduilas sat long in thought; but at the last she {said only: 'Túrin son of Húrin loves me not; nor will.'}> NA-EX-53.8 <CoH {Then Finduilas} rose, and queenly indeed she looked.> NA-EX-54 <Ap Narn ‘Your eyes are dimmed, Gwindor,’ she said. ‘You do not see or understand what is here come to pass. Must I now be put to double shame to reveal the truth to you? For I love you, Gwindor, and I am ashamed that I love you not more, but have taken a love even greater, from which I cannot escape. I did not seek it, and long I put it aside. But I have pity for your hurts, have pity on mine. Túrin <CoH son of Húrin> loves me not; nor will.’

[Findegil]

I agree to much of this but not to all your changes:

English: I agree to eliminate ‘modern’ following your argument. But as we call our work ‘Translation from the Elvish’ the second might need a small revision only:

This version into NA-EX-02.1{'modern'} English, that is forms of NA-EX-02.2{English}[language] intelligible to living users of the English tongue (who have some knowledge of letters, and are not limited to the language of daily use from mouth to mouth) does not attempt to imitate the idiom of {Ælfwine, nor that of} the Elvish which often shows through especially in the dialogue. ...

NA-TI-27: I think we should hold one sentence of what you would skip:

NA-TI-27 <QS77 {Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but}And Túrin did not perceive what had befallen.{ And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent.} But Gwindor sat in dark thought NA-EX-53.7 <CoH , and he cursed Morgoth who could thus pursue his enemies with woe, withersoever they might run. …

Respectfully
Findegil