Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

[Findegil]

Okay, I have at long least done my home work for this discussion. You will find in the following editorial marks as we used before and the editing as odl members are used to. To distiguish the points discussed here from that of other chapters I used AFA-ZZ to mark all points of interest.

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
AFA-01<AFA commentary The Debate of Finrod and Andreth>
AFA-02 Now the Eldar learned that, according to the lore of the Edain, ...
Concerning these things it is recorded ...
Finrod (son of Finarfin, son of Finwe) was ... He it was that first met Men in Beleriand and befriended them; and for this reason he was often called by the Eldar AFA-03{Edennil}<AFA Manuscript Atandil (or >Edennil), 'the Friend of Men'. ...
Andreth was a woman of the House of Beor, the sister of Bregor father of Barahir (whose son was Beren One-hand the renowned). She was wise in thought, and learned in the lore of Men and their histories AFA-04<AFA Manuscript /and she /learned also all that she could hear of the Eldar>; for which reason the Eldar called her Saelind, 'Wise-heart'.
Of the Wise some were women, and they were greatly esteemed among Men, especially for their knowledge of the legends of ancient days. Another Wise-woman was Adanel, sister of AFA-05{Hador Lorindol}[Magor] at one time Lord of the People of Marach, whose lore and traditions, and their language also, were different from those of the People of Beor. But Adanel was married to a kinsman of Andreth, Belemir of the House of Beor AFA-06<AFA Manuscript , grandson of Belen second son of Beor the Old, to whom the wisdom of Beor (for Beor himself had been one of the wise) was chiefly transmitted.> {: he}Belemir was grandsire of Emeldir, mother of Beren. AFA-07<AFA Manuscript And there had been great love between Belemir and Andreth his younger kins-woman (the daughter of his second cousin Boromir), and> {In}in her youth {Andreth}she had dwelt long in Belemir's house, and so had learned from Adanel much of the lore of the People of Marach, besides the lore of her own folk.
In the days of the peace ...
...
'We have seen it, and we fear it,' answered Finrod. 'We too may die, Andreth; and we have died. My father's father was cruelly slain, and many have followed him, exiles in the night, in the cruel ice, in the insatiable sea. And in Middle-earth we have died, by fire and by smoke, by venom and the cruel blades of battle. Feanor is dead, and AFA-08{Fingolphin was trodden under the feet of the Morgoth}<editorial addition Argon Fingolfin's son too>.
...
'I will not,' said Andreth. 'We do nor speak of this to those of other race. But indeed the Wise are uncertain and speak with contrary voices; for whatever happened AFA-09 long ago, we have fled from it; we have tried to forget, and so long have we tried that now we cannot remember any time when we were not as we are - save only legends of days when death came less swiftly and our span was still far longer, but already there was death.'
...
'We have thought that this was so only because the Elves have lasting life and undiminished vigour. "Grown-up children" we, the guests, sometimes call you, my lord. And yet - and yet, if nothing in Arda for us holds its savour long, and all fair things grow dim, what then? Does it not come from {[}the{]} Shadow upon our hearts? Or do you say that it is not so, but this was ever our nature, even before the wound?'
...
'They say,' answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through AFA-10 years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.'
'They say, they feign?' said Finrod. 'Are you then nor one of them?'
...
'But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me.'

AFA-11<AFA Commentary The Tale of Adanel>
AFA-12<AFA Author's Note 9 on the 'Commentary' It is probable that Andreth was actually unwilling to say more AFA-13<AFA Commentray about the {He uncovers a concomitant} tradition that the change in the condition of Men from their original design was due to a primeval disaster>.
Partly by a kind of loyalty that restrained Men from revealing to the Elves all that they knew about the darkness in their past; partly because she felt unable to make up her own mind about the conflicting human traditions. Longer recensions of the Athrabeth, evidently edited under Numenorean influence, make her give, under pressure, a more precise answer. Some are very brief, some longer. All agree, however, in making the cause of disaster the acceptance by Men of Melkor as King (or King and God). In one version a complete legend (compressed in timescale) is given explicitly as a Numenorean tradition, for it makes Andreth say: ‘This is the Tale that Adanel of the House of AFA-14 Hador told to me.’ The Numenoreans were largely, and their non-Elvish traditions mainly, derived from the People of Marach, of whom the House of Hador were the chieftains. The legend bears certain resemblances to the Numenorean traditions concerning the part played by Sauron in the downfall of Numenor. But this does not prove that it is entirely a fiction of post-downfall days. It is no doubt mainly derived from actual lore of the People of Marach, quite independent of the Athrabeth. {[Added note: }Nothing is hereby asserted concerning its 'truth', historical or otherwise.{]} The operations of Sauron naturally and inevitably resembled or repeated those of his master. That a people in possession of such a legend or tradition should have later been deluded by Sauron is sad but, in view of human history generally, not incredible. Indeed if fish had fish-lore and Wise-fish, it is probable that the business of anglers would be very little hindered.

The 'Tale of Adanel'
Then Andreth being urged by Finrod said at last: 'This is the tale that Adanel of the House of AFA-15 Hador told to me.'

Some say the Disaster happened ...
...

Whithout editing mark: Finraphin must be changed at least to Finrafin. I already commented on the change to Arfin proposed by Arvegil145
AFA-01: I tried to avoid the naming of the Tale of Adanel as an Appendix, therefore I intorduce this sub-heading and a similar one for that Tale under AFA-10.
AFA-02: Under this reference we should discuss the complete intorduction and how much of it we would use.
AFA-03 and AFA-04: As the Manuscript is the later text, I think we should use what is provided of it.
AFA-05: This is Arvegils change 1. It is a bit strange to me that this was not changed in the small genalogical table provided by Christopher Tolkien. But things become clearer when we read in HoME 11. There Adanel is named a daughter of Malach Aradan and with this the sister of Magor.
AFA-06 and AFA-07: These were Arvegils145 changes 2. and 3. but i think I edited them a bit diffrent.
AFA-08: Even so I my self found the addition of Argon to liberal, I see now a strong need for a replacement for Fingolfin. It read very stange to mention Feanor as the only named dead. Alternativly we could either put some colloquila phrase like 'and many beside him' or we must skip the mention of Feanor as well.
AFA-09 and AFA-10: These are the passages that suggest a longer time between the Fall of Men and the cinverstation between Finrod and Andreth. I agree somewhat hestitatingly to Arvegil145 that they might stand.
AFA-11: Only the title. I skipt naming it appendix.
AFA-12: Even if the style is bit awakward, I found the Note 9 useable as in intorduction supossedly written by the later editor of our book looking back to the through the ages of Middle-Earth.
AFA-13: Since we have no reference we must provied one here.
AFA-14 and AFA-15: Since we revaled in the introduction that we are dealing with a Numenorean source I think we could let the name House of Hador stand. But this can be disputed.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

I agree with pretty much everything - but I still think that House of Finarfin should not be used - it is a matter of consistency, even though some readers might find it confusing.

House of Hador (in the beginning of the Tale of Adanel) - same thing.

[Arvegil145]

AFA-11<AFA Commentary The Tale of Adanel>
AFA-12<AFA Author's Note 9 on the 'Commentary' It is probable that Andreth was actually unwilling to say more AFA-13<AFA Commentray about the {He uncovers a concomitant} tradition that the change in the condition of Men from their original design was due to a primeval disaster>.
Partly by a kind of loyalty that restrained Men from revealing to the Elves all that they knew about the darkness in their past; partly because she felt unable to make up her own mind about the conflicting human traditions. Longer recensions of the Athrabeth, evidently edited under Numenorean influence, make her give, under pressure, a more precise answer. Some are very brief, some longer. All agree, however, in making the cause of disaster the acceptance by Men of Melkor as King (or King and God). In one version a complete legend (compressed in timescale) is given explicitly as a Numenorean tradition, for it makes Andreth say: ‘This is the Tale that Adanel of the House of AFA-14 Hador told to me.’ The Numenoreans were largely, and their non-Elvish traditions mainly, derived from the People of Marach, of whom the House of Hador were the chieftains. The legend bears certain resemblances to the Numenorean traditions concerning the part played by Sauron in the downfall of Numenor. But this does not prove that it is entirely a fiction of post-downfall days. It is no doubt mainly derived from actual lore of the People of Marach, quite independent of the Athrabeth. {[Added note: }Nothing is hereby asserted concerning its 'truth', historical or otherwise.{]} The operations of Sauron naturally and inevitably resembled or repeated those of his master. That a people in possession of such a legend or tradition should have later been deluded by Sauron is sad but, in view of human history generally, not incredible. Indeed if fish had fish-lore and Wise-fish, it is probable that the business of anglers would be very little hindered.

I agree with that. And I don't think it is clumsy.

[gondowe]

Well I have to study all the post of this thread with more time. Only say faster that the introduction, I managed inserting it in the chapter Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar , to start the "tale" more "literaturist".
I'll follow the posts.

Greetings