Obscure Topics of the Legendarium

[Mithalwen]

I don't find the Orodreth option satisfactory. I appreciate that this is really an instinctive / emotional response in me that Orodreth just seems so, well, feeble to have sired Gil-galad. In addition, while I realise he might have been a child at the time but it makes Finduilas' comment to Turin rather insulting. Though placing him in the line of Fingolfin has some attractions, Finrod seems much more fitting in character and behaviour let alone fate. But then there is the poignancy of Finrod leaving his beloved....

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't find the Orodreth option satisfactory. I appreciate that this is really an instinctive / emotional response in me that Orodreth just seems so, well, feeble to have sired Gil-galad.

I agree. Perhaps it could be rationalized that the awesomesauce skipped a generation in this case or that Gil-galad learned from his father's mistakes.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, as CT said, none of the later genealogy ever made its way into narrative, which he was loath to rewrite too much except in extremis. We are left with the bizarre circumstance that the whole time Turin was living in Nargothrond as Orodreth's No 2 and Finduilas' object of affection- yet the king's son Gil-Galad isn't there? And mind you, this state of affairs was written in the Narn material during the later 1950s, it's not ancient QN stuff.

Nor can we use the dodge that Gil-Galad was "sent away to Balar," really; why on earth would that have been the case when Nargothrond was (so they thought) at the height of its power and impregnability?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(...) Nor can we use the dodge that Gil-Galad was "sent away to Balar," really; why on earth would that have been the case when Nargothrond was (so they thought) at the height of its power and impregnability?

As I know you know, in alterations made to QS, where Gil-galad is Felagund's son, Felagund, fearing that all strong places were doomed to fall, sends away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and their child ('yet an Elvenchild') Gil-galad.

And another note: 'But forseeing evil he [Felagund] demanded Orodreth to send away his son Gil-galad, and wife.' This was struck out, but yet a third note states that the wife of Felagund '... forsook the folk of Nargothrond and went with her son Gilgalad to the Havens of the Falas.' And this forsaking of Nargothrond seemingly takes place when Orodreth expells Celegorn and Curufin from Nargothrond.

The note in which Fingon becomes King of the Noldor and sends his son Gil-galad to the Havens [compared to the 1977 Silmarillion, the line reads: ['… Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor. [Late penciled addition: But his young son (?Findor) [sic] Gilgalad he sent to the Havens]' War of the Jewels. p. 56] is present on the GA typescript, itself dating to 1958.

So the external progression seems to be:

A) Felagund sends his wife and son to the Havens for safety -- A1) or demands that Orodreth do so -- A2) or Felagund's wife forsakes Nargothrond with Gil-galad

B) Then later the idea re-emerges that Gil-galad was sent to the havens, by his father Fingon.

C) Then later again Gil-galad is back as a Finarfinian, but now 'escapes'... I assume escapes the fall of Nargothrond.

C is based on:

Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile. Angrod's son was Artaresto, who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when Angrod was slain, and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was Rodreth (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains). His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad). Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Noldor there.

JRRT, August 1965, reproduced in The Shibboleth of Feanor, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

[Formendacil]

It's uncanonical as Mary Sue, but I always liked the idea that Gil-galad was the son of Fingolfin's son Argon (Arakano)--mentioned only in the Shibboleth texts and said to have died just after the crossing of the Helcaraxe. The reason it worked for me is that it allowed the basic outline of the published Silmarillion to remain intact, an outline I have a nostalgia for simply because I encountered it young.

In such a case, Gil-galad is still associated with the House of Fingolfin. It makes sense that the son of Argon would remain with the Elves of Hithlum, but it also makes sense why he'd be skipped over in the succession by Turgon--like others, I found that the hardest point to swallow in the published Silm narrative: the passing over of the House of Fëanor is presented as an aberration, so why isn't the passing over of the House of Fingon treated likewise?

I might also like it for the meta-narrative reason that it keeps Gil-galad's genealogy "obscure"--it's not quite the "left unsaid" that Christopher Tolkien ended up wishing he'd followed, but as Argon sits on both the edge of obscurity and the edge of canonicity, it leaves Gil-galad's parentage sufficiently forgettable that it makes sense to me that his father could be forgotten in the published tales, leaving later, mannish, scholars to speculate if he was the son of Fingon or the son of a Finarfinian.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

(...) like others, I found that the hardest point to swallow in the published Silm narrative: the passing over of the House of Fëanor is presented as an aberration, so why isn't the passing over of the House of Fingon treated likewise?

But Maedhros waived his claim, so that much is explained I would say. "For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertation in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: ’If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise.’"

And I like this explanation for the rest...

'An observation on 'male primogeniture:' I don't think it quite fits the given accounts (any of them) to impose the Salic Law on the Eldarin royal houses. The more I revolve the claim of kingship as it in fact passed (and didn't pass), the more I am convinced that Kingship among the Elves could pass in the female line, but not to a female: she would preserve it for her male descendants. If this is the case then it makes perfect sense why Dior is Thingol's Heir, not Luthien; that Earendil son of Idril rules at the Havens (and that his wife Elwing was not "Queen" of the Sindarin majority there), and that T[olkien] never even considers Galadriel as being a claimant. (Perhaps one reason he dumped Amroth as G & C's son is that Amroth would have suddenly become a claimant- instead, G has a daughter, who has a daughter...whose son Eldarion 'scion of Elves' is considerd the ruler of Middle-earth's remaining Eldar.).

(...) I think that may be it precisely: seniority in age was what mattered, rather than line of descent. G-G was older than Earendil. After all, the Elves' quasi-immortality poses a real problem for the traditional Mannish system of lineal primogeniture- there's always a chance that a child from a senior line to the reigning King could pop up.

(...) Perhaps the law was simply "the eldest male member of the Royal House in Middle-earth." Elves didn't have to worry about an older generation being short-lived! Therefore Turgon would come before GG, no matter who GG's father was, and GG would then be senior to Earendil.'

Solictr

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Galin

But Maedhros waived his claim, so that much is explained I would say. "For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertation in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: ’If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise.’"

And I like this explanation for the rest...

And yet, we don't see the High-Kingship of the Noldor passing to Ëarendil, but rather to Gil-galad, who, whatever descent you choose to endorse, is a male-line descendant. I don't buy the age argument, it just seems unconvincing to me; the male-line descent with one exception due to the House of Fëanor being passed over is by far the simplest answer.

And Michael Martinez notes that neither Dior, nor his descendants, ever take the title of Lord of Beleriand or High-King of the Sindar. He is called Thingol's heir, and rules with the authority of expected of the king of Doriath, but is never explicitly given the same titles. Thus, I think we all agree that authority can be inherited through male or female lines, but I think the actual title of High-King is demonstrated only to descend through male-line primogeniture. Saying it might have gone through female lines doesn't really pan out, because it didn't, otherwise Elrond might have become the High-King, as the only male heir of the High-Kings of both the Noldor and Sindar. One can argue he didn't take the High-Kingship because there weren't enough Noldor to use the title, and that argument has merit, but we never see a descendant by female descent taking that title, only wielding reduced or diminished authority usually earned partially by descent, partially by action (Ëarendil, Dior, etc...).

I also don't know where it ever says that Eldarion ruled over the Eldar in middle-earth. Would you mind citing that? My books are packed up right now, so I don't have access to them.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't find the Orodreth option satisfactory. I appreciate that this is really an instinctive / emotional response in me that Orodreth just seems so, well, feeble to have sired Gil-galad. In addition, while I realise he might have been a child at the time but it makes Finduilas' comment to Turin rather insulting. Though placing him in the line of Fingolfin has some attractions, Finrod seems much more fitting in character and behaviour let alone fate. But then there is the poignancy of Finrod leaving his beloved....

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I agree. Perhaps it could be rationalized that the awesomesauce skipped a generation in this case or that Gil-galad learned from his father's mistakes.

Sons need not take after their fathers, in temperament or accomplishments. And honestly, if Gil-galad were not raised around his father, it would seem all the more likely he would share fewer behavioral characteristics than otherwise (though again, not a hard and fast rule). And as for awesomesauce skipping a generation, take a look at the descendants of the Ship-Kings: Atanatar, basically a loser who rode his predecessors coat-tails, followed by two kings who let their nephew/son rule for them. Romendacil II was the first king worth his salt after his great-grandfather, Hyarmendacil I.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

Sons need not take after their fathers, in temperament or accomplishments.

True but more so in real life than in Tolkien's world where genetics don't seem to work the same way and so many powers, qualities and kudos are inherited.

And how can I phrase this, Orodreth seems too feeble to have sired anyone...

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

True but more so in real life than in Tolkien's world where genetics don't seem to work the same way and so many powers, qualities and kudos are inherited.

And how can I phrase this, Orodreth seems too feeble to have sired anyone...

Right, and I understand that viewpoint, but we have just as many examples of sons either not living up to, or greatly surpassing, their fathers in Tolkien's works that I don't think we could make such a blanket statement.

I mean, I know it's your opinion and so it's not really up for argument, per se. And I'm not really trying to convince you, more just stating my differing opinion, in general.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

(...) In addition, while I realise he might have been a child at the time but it makes Finduilas' comment to Turin rather insulting.

Hmm, but that line, I think, would have been altered or lifted out, if Tolkien had fully written the new idea in.

Stripping Finduilas of part of her line to Turin does not seem that invasive (not that you said it was), and this does not occur in QS itself if I recall correctly. I assume you are referring to: 'But you are kingly,' said she, 'even as the lords of the people of Fingolfin; I would I had a brother so valiant.' from The Children of Hurin.