Obscure Topics of the Legendarium

[Belegorn]

I don't know if it's much but I believe there's a letter Gil-galad wrote to the King of Númenor in Aldarion and Erendis.

[Mithalwen]

That is one of the tantalising hints.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I would dearly love to know more about Gil-galad, not just a definitive resolution of the "Whose the Daddy?" issue, but he ruled a huge area for an age of the world and the hints are tantalising.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I don't know if it's much but I believe there's a letter Gil-galad wrote to the King of Númenor in Aldarion and Erendis.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

That is one of the tantalising hints.

I've documented my opinion on the parentage of Gil-galad in an essay I'm writing on Galadriel, in an attempt to come up with a consistent history for her and her family.

Taken from Corsair_Caruso's essay, left unquoted (for the most part) for ease of quoting in response

Gil-galad's ancestry is somewhat of a contentious issue. In The War of the Jewels, C. Tolkien stated that Gil-galad as Fingon's son was "adopted after much hesitation," and that it "was not in fact by any means the last of my father’s speculations?" Later, in The Peoples of Middle-earth, C. Tolkien stated that Gil-galad as the son of Fingon (as given in The Silmarillion and referenced in the letter from Gil-galad to Tar-Meneldur in Aldarion and Erendis) was an outright error.

Apparently Gil-galad's ancestry was as problematic for the Tolkiens as it has been for his readers. C. Tolkien states that Gil-galad's parentage changed many times throughout his father's writing process. He was alternatively the son of Fingon, Finrod, or Orodreth. The changing of other characters' placement on the family tree, including Orodreth's, didn't help either.
C. Tolkien reports that in 1965, "my father suggested that the best solution to the problem of Gil-galad's heritage was to find him in 'the son of Orodreth'..." who in this text is described as "Finrod's kinsman and steward," and Gil-galad subsequently called "the son of Arothir, nephew of Finrod," with Arothir being an alternate name for Orodreth. Finduilas' parentage was unamended by Tolkien, and thus she became Gil-galad's sister.

C. Tolkien was quite firm that this assertion superseded that published in The Silmarillion:

There can be no doubt that thus was my father's last word on the subject; but nothing of this late and radically altered conception ever touched the existing narratives, and it was obviously impossible to incorporate it into the published Silmarillion.
[...]
Much closer analysis of the admittedly extremely complex material than I had made twenty years ago makes it clear that Gil-galad as the son of Fingon was an ephemeral idea.

So, C. Tolkien admits that he chose not to include this change, though it was clear that his father had firmly changed his mind on the subject, and furthermore that the parentage included in The Silmarillion would have been different as a result of closer study of his father's notes.

Those familiar with Aldarion and Erendis in Unfinished Tales will remember that the salutation in Gil-galad's letter to Tar-Meneldur begins with "Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon," but C. notes that this was an editorial choice on his part, with the original text being "Finellach Gil-galad of the House of Finarfin."

C. Tolkien's statements to the error of the earlier stated and more widely known parentage of Gil-galad and Orodreth notwithstanding, he retained the genealogy as stated in The Silmarillion for the publication of The Children of Húrin. Nonetheless, I have chosen to make the suggested alterations for the purposes of any of my Arda narratives, thus...

Finarfin's son are Finrod (died without issue), Aegnor (died without issue, due in part to his love for the mortal woman Andreth), and Angrod. Angrod was the father of Orodreth, who succeeded his uncle Finrod as king of Nargothrond, and whose children were Finduilas and Gil-galad. This, in my opinion, also clears up the issue of inheritance of the High-Kingship of the Noldor in Exile. While Gil-galad was the son of Fingon, it left people scrambling for justification as to why Turgon inherited the title of High-King when Fingon died, rather than his ostensible son, Gil-galad, leading some to claim that the inheritance must have gone first to brothers before sons. This, while possible, seems to me inelegant. With Gil-galad as the son of Orodreth, we have a much more traditional line of inheritance.

Fingolfin >son> Fingon (died without issue) >brother, next oldest son of Fingolfin> Turgon (died without a son) >closest relative by male descent/first-cousin twice removed>Ereinion Gil-galad.

end

So, I'm convinced that Gil-galad should be regarded the son of Orodreth, who is the son of Angrod, with the above as evidence.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

I've documented my opinion on the parentage of Gil-galad in an essay I'm writing on Galadriel, in an attempt to come up with a consistent history for her and her family.

I would be interested to see this, even in outline form, as (I guess) I've done something like it myself, although many years ago now. I centered on Galadriel and Celeborn. And I should add two things: one, considering that I can be a pedantic son of a boar, and two, considering some of the posthumously published confusion here (to add to some author published confusion)...

... well, I might disagree with some of your stuff, that's all.

Might. But I'm still interested

So, C. Tolkien admits that he chose not to include this change, though it was clear that his father had firmly changed his mind on the subject, and furthermore that the parentage included in The Silmarillion would have been different as a result of closer study of his father's notes.

Here's that pedantic part I told you about: wasn't the conclusion, in any case, that Christopher Tolkien felt that it would have been better if he had left Gil-galad's parentage obscure. And not that you said otherwise, but I took that to mean: "that's what I would do if I could do it over again."

C. Tolkien's statements to the error of the earlier stated and more widely known parentage of Gil-galad and Orodreth notwithstanding, he retained the genealogy as stated in The Silmarillion for the publication of The Children of Húrin.

Hmm, two pedantic thingies from me in one post! But I sometimes point out that while Christopher Tolkien retained the "old" version in that Orodreth [Arothir] is Galadriel's brother and Gil-galad is missing in Finarfin's line, he also left Gil-galad out of the tree with Fingon too. In other words Fingon appears to have no son in this tree.

Interesting perhaps, when one considers Christopher Tolkien's comment in HME about leaving the matter obscure.

Unless I've missed another reference!

[Zigûr]

I personally think the placement of Gil-galad as the son of Orodreth, son of Angrod, works quite well, and it's a shame that Christopher Tolkien didn't feel up to the task of incorporating the revised genealogy into the published Silmarillion, although I appreciate that it would have been tricky, and more importantly still would have (in his view) further compromised the authenticity of the text. I suppose that goes back to the idea of whether a completed Silmarillion edited by another person or simply publishing the drafts as they were was more representative of the narrative.

In another sense, I like that the High Kingship of the Noldor in Middle-earth ultimately passes to the House of Finarfin as it means that each House, however briefly in the case of Fëanor's, held the Kingship in Middle-earth at one point. I also think it suits Gil-galad's character quite nicely that he derived from the House of Finarfin, given that he mistrusted Sauron and so forth. Lindon being ruled by the great-grandson of Finarfin while Eregion is ruled by the grandson of Fëanor sets up an interesting dynamic, I think.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Galin

I would be interested to see this, even in outline form, as (I guess) I've done something like it myself, although many years ago now. I centered on Galadriel and Celeborn. And I should add two things: one, considering that I can be a pedantic son of a boar, and two, considering some of the posthumously published confusion here (to add to some author published confusion)...

... well, I might disagree with some of your stuff, that's all.

Might. But I'm still interested

I'm happy to show my work once it's done. Right now all my books are packed for a move this week, then I've got my sister's wedding, so it'll be a bit before I can sit down and actually work on this essay again. However, I do feel the need to make a general disclaimer. As I understand the work currently to exist, a true, full, and detailed history of Galadriel and her family can't really be compiled without editorial decisions made by an editor. Though I'll defer in some cases to Christopher Tolkien, he seems to have judged even himself unequal to the task of consolidating his father's notes into a comprehensive timeline of events that is both detailed and self-consistent.

Thus, I'll be making decisions based on the Tolkiens' work, but if I find certain events irreconcilable or sufficiently (needlessly) complicating, I'll probably discard one and make a decision based on my own opinion and best judgment. This final timeline may be as much a reflection of my own sensibilities anything else. I won't make up events that Tolkien didn't supply, but if I find they contribute to the most compelling narrative, I may blend events from one to another.

Some may accuse me of cherry picking. That may be; I do love cherries.

Now... in the course of this research, I may find that my editorial opinion is seldom needed, which honestly is my hope. And even when I do insert my own decision making into the effort, I'm open to persuasion. But I am not going to hold myself to quite the same standard as our friends are in the complete Silmarillion sub-forum.

The more scholastically oriented portion of the essay will likely be the part that interests you, and that may be all I include here, as it will include my thoughts and justifications for why I consider what sections to be definitive over others. If you're interested at all in the final product, which is (essentially) a semi-narrative timeline of the life of Galadriel and her extended family, by all means I'll include it, but I'm willing to bet most here will consider it little better, if at all, than fan-fiction.

Originally Posted by Galin

Here's that pedantic part I told you about: wasn't the conclusion, in any case, that Christopher Tolkien felt that it would have been better if he had left Gil-galad's parentage obscure. And not that you said otherwise, but I took that to mean: "that's what I would do if I could do it over again."

You're quite right, that is indeed what Christopher Tolkien said he wished he had done, but I am glad he didn't. Honestly, such an important personage in Elven history, most especially of the Second Age, deserves a parentage listed in the genealogies. With the genealogy of the Noldorin Kings in Exile so carefully detailed, to include a High-King whose descent from Finwe is undocumented and unattested seems unbelievable. I suppose my response is this: he could have done it, but I don't think he should have. That being said, my opinion is only my opinion. But, that is why I choose to say, "Gil-galad is the son of Orodreth, son of Angrod, son of Finarfin" and not "Well, we simply don't know because there are too many conflicting answers." There is not another significant member in the royal house of the Noldor in Exile whose parentage is left a mystery, and I think to do so only with Gil-galad is insufficient.

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, two pedantic thingies from me in one post! But I sometimes point out that while Christopher Tolkien retained the "old" version in that Orodreth [Arothir] is Galadriel's brother and Gil-galad is missing in Finarfin's line, he also left Gil-galad out of the tree with Fingon too. In other words Fingon appears to have no son in this tree.

Interesting perhaps, when one considers Christopher Tolkien's comment in HME about leaving the matter obscure.

Unless I've missed another reference!

It is interesting. I suppose I consider the two matters linked, considering their relation in (what I consider to be) the final, definitive decision in the matter. In my mind, if Orodreth is the son of Finarfin, then Gil-galad is the son of Fingon, but this is an interesting point. Still, the matter seems, at best, unaddressed, and while Gil-galad is not a character involved in the Tale of the Children of Hurin, I think if Christopher Tolkien wanted not to address the matter of the conflicting parentages, he should simply also have called Orodreth Finrod's kinsman and successor, rather than specific him as his brother. I don't see the distinction between the one editorial decision and the other, other than feeling no decision on Gil-galad needed to be made in CoH.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I personally think the placement of Gil-galad as the son of Orodreth, son of Angrod, works quite well, and it's a shame that Christopher Tolkien didn't feel up to the task of incorporating the revised genealogy into the published Silmarillion, although I appreciate that it would have been tricky, and more importantly still would have (in his view) further compromised the authenticity of the text. I suppose that goes back to the idea of whether a completed Silmarillion edited by another person or simply publishing the drafts as they were was more representative of the narrative.

In another sense, I like that the High Kingship of the Noldor in Middle-earth ultimately passes to the House of Finarfin as it means that each House, however briefly in the case of Fëanor's, held the Kingship in Middle-earth at one point. I also think it suits Gil-galad's character quite nicely that he derived from the House of Finarfin, given that he mistrusted Sauron and so forth. Lindon being ruled by the great-grandson of Finarfin while Eregion is ruled by the grandson of Fëanor sets up an interesting dynamic, I think.

So, a question... Did Maedhros forefeit the claim of the House of Fëanor on the High-Kingship, or did he withdraw his contest to the claims of the other Houses, and thus subordinate the House of Fëanor to the other two lines of Finwe, thereby establishing the supremacy of Fingolfin (who had the greater following, was the next oldest in line, and had already been exercising the Kingship of the Noldor in place of his father for years while Fëanor and Finwe were in exile)? My question is, could the House of Fëanor have claimed the High-Kingship in the case of the extinction of the other two houses and an extant Noldorin population still cohesive enough to maintain a kingdom.

Such a hypothetical situation might have been the survival of Celebrimbor but the death of Gil-galad, who had no heirs. Would Celebrimbor have had a legal right to make a claim on the High-Kingship in the event of the end of other male-line descendants of Finwe in Middle-earth?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

(...) I also think it suits Gil-galad's character quite nicely that he derived from the House of Finarfin, given that he mistrusted Sauron and so forth. Lindon being ruled by the great-grandson of Finarfin while Eregion is ruled by the grandson of Fëanor sets up an interesting dynamic, I think.

I agree. For me one of the problems with Gil-galad the Finarfinian is the matter of Nargothrond, Finduilas and Turin. I'm not saying the problems could not have been solved, but adding Gil-galad here does create a "need" in my opinion, to settle a few matters.

There's a thread about this, not here but here...

http://forums.theonering.com/viewtop...?f=27&t=104639

[Galin]

As I understand the work currently to exist, a true, full, and detailed history of Galadriel and her family can't really be compiled without editorial decisions made by an editor.

If trying to incorporate posthumously published materials, as I did, I had to make a lot of decisions based upon my own ideas about canon, my number one rule there being: author published material takes prime standing and trumps conflicting material. This consideration, while nicely weeding out some late material, is not going to smooth out all the bumps or answer all the questions however.

I found that my own Galadriel and Celeborn timeline is generally noted here in a thread at Barrow Downs, but interestingly, now I don't agree with all of it! One reason is that my mind is changing about the introduction of the mallorn trees, and I'm starting to question the whole later concept.

Heresy I know

I'm actually starting to prefer what I think was Tolkien's original idea: the mallorn trees grew "magically" and naturally in Lorien with the exception of the one in the Shire (later). Granted it's a bit misty, but specifically giving Galadriel the "power" (as Tolkien appears to later) to grow them in Middle-earth raises questions about why she did not, or could not, grow them anywhere else (in the long years before Amroth's death) West of the Misty Mountains.

I mean, in tandem with the fact that Lorien was not her realm to look after until well into the Third Age, after Amroth's passing.

Anyway, that's just one example of my madness