Middle-earth What-ifs

[Faramir Jones]

It was suggested in The Tale of Years that a reason why Arvedui's claim was rejected was because he was the last of a line of losers, who allowed Arnor to be fragmented into three, with only one part surviving, and now under threat from the Witch-king. Why should he be made King of Gondor, with the resulting risk of diverting resources from there to prop up a 'failing state'?

Later, Arthedain was destroyed by the Witch-king, although at the price of the latter's defeat. Arvedui's son and later descendants took the title of 'Chieftain', laying aside their royal status, there being no kingdom left to be king of.

This made later Gondorians, including the Stewards, uninterested in trying to find out if any descendants of Isildur, through Arevdui, still existed, let alone making an offer of the crown of Gondor. The earlier prejudice would be magnified, in terms of not wanting any scarce Gondorian resources being diverted to resurrect a 'failed state'.

This shows the huge obstacles Aragorn II had to climb to be considered a serious candidate for King of Gondor. What I feel was crucial was his ability to defeat Gondor's enemies, as Eärnil did centuries before.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

This made later Gondorians, including the Stewards, uninterested in trying to find out if any descendants of Isildur, through Arevdui, still existed, let alone making an offer of the crown of Gondor. The earlier prejudice would be magnified, in terms of not wanting any scarce Gondorian resources being diverted to resurrect a 'failed state'.

This shows the huge obstacles Aragorn II had to climb to be considered a serious candidate for King of Gondor. What I feel was crucial was his ability to defeat Gondor's enemies, as Eärnil did centuries before.

I wonder if the prejudice dated to an extent back to the early days of the kingdoms, given that Meneldil "was in fact-well pleased by the departure of Isildur and his sons, and hoped that affairs in the North would keep them long occupied." ("The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" Note 10)

The thought of Meneldil suggests to me that there was perhaps a quite ancient disposition in Gondor against too close a relationship with Arnor and a desire for independence from the authority of the line of the High King of the Dúnedain.

[Faramir Jones]

I recall your quote from UT, Zigûr, and agree that the separation of Gondor and Arnor might have begun with Meneldil's attitude, which later hardened into a tradition. I believe that the earlier attitude you quoted was intensified by the disaster of the Gladden Fields, when Isildur and his 3 eldest sons died, his youngest son Valandil being his successor, though a minor.

Isildur was accepted by his nephew as overlord, as High King of the Dúnedain; but I don't believe that Meneldil would have accepted the same relationship from a much younger cousin unable to rule. There is an interesting note that Meneldil was the last Man born in Númenor before the Downfall; so I've no doubt he was made much of in his early years, as a sign of promise for the future. Such a person would not have accepted a younger cousin as overlord. Now, if Isildur had survived, lived to a ripe old age, and had then been succeeded by his eldest son...

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

There is an interesting note that Meneldil was the last Man born in Númenor before the Downfall; so I've no doubt he was made much of in his early years, as a sign of promise for the future.

That's a good point. I've always liked the idea of Meneldil as the last Man born in Númenor. Weirdly enough, he was born the year before Eru destroyed Númenor. No one in the entire island had children for several months to a year? Or does it mean that he was the youngest survivor of Númenor?

It's interesting to note in general that the position of High King seems to have been unclaimed by the line of Isildur after his death. Regarding Isildur surviving, the quote about Meneldil seems to suggest that he was eager to be managing his own affairs (and Gondor's) even when he had every reason to assume Isildur's continued survival.

[Belegorn]

The Dúnedain were slow to reproduce and perhaps events on the island stayed the birth of children to some extent as Elves are known to do when they are engaged in conflict. Meneldil could certainly have been the youngest survivor of Númenor because Isildur too was born in Númenor though an older man. A great portion of the Dúnedain were probably born in Númenor that were still around 122-124 years later till Isildur's death. I just think that statement means he was the youngest of the survivors of Númenor.

I think it is a good point that the view of the South toward the North may have extended almost from the beginning of the 3rd Age. In Gondor the Dúnedain did look askance at what they saw as a "small thing" in Arthedain. I mentioned Eärnil was one of the few who was of a different view "I do not foget the loyalty of Arnor, no deny our kinship, nor wish that the realms of Elendil should be estranged." [Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion] As great a captain as he was Eärnil could not even bring himself to bring aid to Arthedain for almost 30 years when it collapsed.