Did Frodo REALLY volunteer to Bear the Ring?

[Nerwen]

Okay, well then: I think the Ring had gained a measure of influence over him by that point; I do not think this means that he intended to betray the others or that he was only acting out of vanity.

That's about all I can say at this stage.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Okay, well then: I think the Ring had gained a measure of influence over him by that point; I do not think this means that he intended to betray the others or that he was only acting out of vanity.

That's about all I can say at this stage.

"Intended" is your point. And, so without intention, there cannot be vanity, or Vanity.

Interesting, thank you for offering

@all

This then opens up the area of conscious versus unconscious mind. I'd be curious to hear what people thought about this, as it's going into psychology. Still, that's okay, because Tolkien was, certainly, a master of understanding about some basic psychological processes, and I believe his experiences of war underscored how he developed the percipience.

who "...lied even unto himself..." - those who do, I'm sure sometimes are not aware that they are. Or - must - not be aware, at least for a term. Wasn't that the point. Even Sauron had the capacity to '...lie even unto himself...' and believe his own bs when pleading for Mercy. For his....Vanity.

I think Frodo's Vanity was very apparent at his footstomping moment in the Council of Elrond.

A second question comes up for me from Nerwen's point:

For those beings whose core underlying being did (not) 'select' the Ring, or claim it in Greed or Vanity of Avarice - how much protection did that afford Frodo? And was that the basic reason that at the Sammath Naur, by 'fate', "Eru" or 'Lady Luck", he used The Ring to Command Sméagol on the upward march to the Sammath Naur, which saved the world. "If you claim the Ring, you will becast yourself into the Sammath Naur". Interesting choice of words, don't you think?

[Galadriel55]

I want to direct your attention to Frodo's thoughts and behaviour beyond this point. Certainly, we see that the Ring has a hold on him. But also, we see Frodo's immense struggle against its power and against the temptation to leave the burden to others. During his trudge with Sam from Anduin, you can see how almost every step is done with the thought of "I must". If you want quotes, there's certainly more than one occasion when he utters either that, or "I ought to" (don't have LOTR with me, so can't give a proper reference, but they're there). Who forced him to go on that weary journey when there were none but his best friend to see? Why did he not just pull a Gollum and hide in some cave with his Precious? Maybe because his motivation was that of duty, an obligation to finish what was started to prevent the destruction of his world, of doing the right thing - and not of keeping the Ring for himself. Frodo wasn't entirely expecting the quest to succeed - especially not automatically. In fact, I believe he even expressed his doubt during the Council, and on several occasions after that. He did not take the Ring because he thought he could complete the quest, but because he saw it as his duty - he saw that none of the others would take it, and if he did not do it then they would bicker until Sauron came knocking, and someone had to take it and try. His intent, as far as we can read from LOTR, is to do the right thing and resist the temptation to do the easy thing. He never thinks he can succeed better than others - he hardly thinks he can succeed at all, and he wishes someone else would do the job so that he can go back home. So when you discuss your theory, please keep in mind those things about Frodo's motives that are stated or seen in the books.

[Pervinca Took]

No, I don't see any vanity at all. Well, not of that kind. He felt an overwhelming desire NOT to go on the quest. He referred to it as a "hopeless journey" to Pippin, quite openly. He saw it as a kind of long-awaited doom that he hoped he might not have to suffer. He wanted the cup to pass, but it didn't, and no-one offered an alternative.

He broke down and wept in despair that his quest would be 'in vain' not long before Shelob's Lair. He must have known, increasingly, that he couldn't destroy the Ring. He was even seriously worried he wouldn't get to Mount Doom in the first place. But the Wise were intent upon sending him to Mount Doom anyway. He wasn't going to defy the wisest people in Middle-earth ... but also, Gandalf had said "I will always help you. I will help you bear this burden, as long as it is yours to bear." So even though Gandalf had not at that point mentioned accompanying him, I think he expected more guidance along the way. Don't forget that he was willing to lean on the guidance of Gandalf and Aragorn, and did not expect to lose them ... it says that partly because of this, he spent as much of his time in Rivendell as possible with Bilbo. The Fellowship members are not finally decided until a week before they set out, but Gandalf has said he thinks he will go.

Regarding going through Moria, Frodo says "I do not wish to go. But neither do I wish to refuse the advice of Gandalf." He had a deep trust in Gandalf, as did Sam. As long as he was around, somehow the impossible seemed possible, perhaps?

My gut feeling has always been that Frodo was completely honest and very sincere. His refusal to destroy the Ring knocked me for six when I was 12, and I remained knocked for six for many years. But eventually I completely accepted - on a gut level, and not just because Tolkien had said so - that asking him to resist the Ring at Mount Doom was asking the impossible.

Obviously for him to destroy it was impossible anyway - we saw that at the hearth at Bag End. But *resist* it - resist claiming it - he did. Until the very last. I disagree with Tolkien's choice of pronoun over this. He says in one letter 'He did not endure to the end.' I believe he *did* endure to the end. It was *at* the end that he couldn't endure/resist any more.

Frodo having ulterior motives - I mean seriously, evil motives in bearing the Ring - can work hilariously in parody, I have found. But nowhere else.

[Pitchwife]

Hey, Ivriniel, didn't you say you'd grown more lenient to Frodo over the years? What new devilry is this?

I'll give you that Frodo already was unable to let go of the Ring in Rivendell, and probably knew it, and that was part of his motivation for volunteering to bear it - if he couldn't bear to give it up anyway, he might as well volunteer to be the Bearer; and the Ring, which was trying to return to its Maker, sort of happily went along with it, as it already had a hold on him. But I think that at this time Frodo's will and the will of the Ring were still separate and striving with each other, and it would be a long time until they were fused to the extent we see at Sammath Naur.

He still wanted it destroyed, I think, although he can't have been under any illusions about his own ability to destroy it; but he trusted Gandalf's counsel and had estel that, if he only took it to the mountain some way of destroying it would present itself - at whatever cost to himself.

(Gandalf and Elrond were quite aware of all this, I think, and part of the reason Elrond agreed so readily that this task was appointed for Frodo was he realized they couldn't take the Ring from Frodo except by force, which would break him.)

It's also pretty obvious that his incipient 'fading' hadn't been completely undone by Elrond's healing powers - not undone, but transformed, which may have been the only way to heal him, by diverting its tendency from wraithishness to, shall we say, faerishness? These are Gandalf's words when he observes it:

Originally Posted by LotR Book II, Many Meetings

'He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.'

A figure of light 'on the other side', like Frodo himself had seen Glorfindel at the ford, only less bright because he was, after all, mortal - that's what Frodo was becoming in my eyes. Not of dark. I'll trust Gandalf's wisdom on this.

The strongest argument against him being corrupted IMO is that he was still capable of pity and mercy, as shown in his treatment of Gollum; and I think the scene in Rivendell when he makes as if to strike Bilbo has something to do with it. For the Ring didn't totally deceive him here, I think, What he saw is the part of Bilbo which still coveted the Precious - the little Gollum in Bilbo, or Bilbo-as-Gollum; and at the same time he became aware how far he himself had already come that way, of his own ability to become Gollum. And that, IMO, is where "He deserves death" began to turn into 'Spare as I hope to be spared'.

But then there's that scene near Mount Doom where Frodo dominates Gollum and threatens him with the fire. For here Sam, made receptive even by the short time he bore the Ring himself, sees Frodo as he is 'on the other side':

Originally Posted by LotR Book VI, Mount Doom

a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire, there spoke a commanding voice

OK, there seems to be something creepy going on here, something very creepy. For here are Frodo, "robed in white" (which I can't help associating with the "clear light" Gandalf spoke of), and the Ring, the wheel of fire, but it's the Ring that speaks for both of them.

But Frodo's robes are still white, not dark or grey as the Nazgûl's were; and I just remembered that the martyrs are clad in white robes in Revelation 6:11, as Tolkien undoubtedly knew. We know Frodo didn't expect to survive if the One went into the Fire, he told Sam as much, and I read the white robe as a sign that part of him was still prepared to sacrifice himself at that point. True, he buckled soon after, but to succumb to an overwhelming force is not corruption. We're not judged by success or failure, only by the purity of our service - who said that again?

[Pervinca Took]

I always felt that Frodo could still have let the Ring go in Rivendell, (although I'm not saying it would have been easy). Remember:

'Then the Ring belongs to you, and not to me at all!'

I know there is that scene with Bilbo ... but he does get as far as showing him the Ring - and he doesn't strike him, even if he does feel a wish to at one point.

I think he'd have been able to do it at that point, with Gandalf's help. Much is said of Bilbo being able to give up the Ring, and how remarkable that was, but he'd never have managed it without all Gandalf's help, as Gandalf himself says.

Also not sure I'd agree that Gandalf and Elrond think it will break Frodo to take the Ring from him. Gandalf said in Bag End that he could not make Frodo *destroy* the Ring, except by force, which would break his mind. I do not believe that it would have been impossible to persuade him to give up the Ring at that point. I think that point comes much later: 'I'm almost in its power now. I couldn't give it up, and if you tried to take it I should go mad.'

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

We're not judged by success or failure, only by the purity of our service - who said that again?

Greenie did.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Greenie did.

hahahaha

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

We're not judged by success or failure, only by the purity of our service - who said that again?

Was Pitchwife quoting Greenie, then? And by Greenie do you mean A Little Green?

[jallanite]

Frodo could have refused the quest when Gandalf first, temporarily, laid it on him. He did not refuse, and he did not accept it because he thought he could better, temporarily, bear the Ring with more success than anyone else. He did it because he knew no-one who was obviously better suited when even Gandalf refused the task. And someone had to take on the job at once.

I see no signs of vanity in the description of Frodo’s thoughts or words at that time. Frodo’s wish is that Gandalf may find someone more suitable to take over the task in his place.

At the Council of Elrond, it is not Frodo who first offers himself, but Bilbo. The offer is first refused by Gandalf, and seemingly Elrond and the others in authority agree. Bilbo admits, “I don’t suppose I have the strength or luck left to deal with the Ring.”

Those present at the Council sit long in silent thought, Frodo among them.

… A great dread fell on him, as if he was waiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain in peace by Bilbo’s side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.

   ‘I will take the Ring,’ he said, ‘though I do not know the way.’

Elrond accepts Frodo’s offer to bear the Ring, and Elrond also says:

But it is a heavy burden. So heavy that none could lay it on another. I do not lay it on you. But if you take it freely, I will say that your choice is right.

In Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, letter 246, Tolkien spends over 7 pages mostly related to this subject. Tollkien writes in part:

I do not think that Frodo’s was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum – impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.

Tolkien continues for two more paragraphs, which you may read, ending this argument with:

I do not myself see that the breaking of his mind was any more a moral failure than the breaking of his body would have been – say, by being strangled by Gollum, or crushed by a falling rock.

I think that Ivriniel is indeed being too hard on Frodo, referring to all sorts of proofs of his thesis, but then mostly not providing those proofs.

Nerwen keeps asking for Ivriniel’s supposed evidence but Ivriniel just doesn’t present it. Galadriel55 gives a wonderful essay referring to Frodo’s actual thoughts from the text, despite not having her LotR with her. Pervinca Took indicates clearly that Frodo is generally not consumed with vanity.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Really Frodo? You reckon you can march on into Mordor, and chuck the thing away, when you couldn't keep it off your finger on Amon Sul, and look at you with Bilbo, ready to gore the guy who took you in, for asking just to look at your pretty 'Precious'. You reckon you can just blare out at Council and stomp your foot and stake your claim--even amongst The Last High King (ish) of the Noldor in Middle Earth!

No, I don't think he reckons anything of the kind. And the Ring tempts people to do horrible things and gives distorted visions. Good people, not yet under serious duress, don't act upon those influences. Frodo doesn't.

Seriously, Frodo. You're "...lying even unto himself...". Very quick was he to 'spot' avarice in others, such as in Boromir. Very much the 'who wants My Precious' don't you think.

There are the beginnings of this, perhaps. But it isn't the whole story. Not by a very long shot. He is under oath - the only member of the Fellowship who is - not to give the Ring up, nor indeed to let any other handle it, save in gravest need. And Boromir *was* getting Ring-crazed - Frodo's instincts were exactly right! I remember someone once posting (on another board, I think) - that at Parth Galen they were virtually shouting Get out of there, Frodo! He's obviously completely lost it! (or words to that effect).

And poor Sam in Cirith Ungol. Seriously Frodo, that was beyond mean, beyond creepy, and cruel. Sauronically cruel, indeed.

There's a reason Frodo is described as *aghast* just after he does this. He's utterly appalled with himself for what he's just said to Sam, and as shocked as I think I can safely say a lot of readers are. But cruelty implies malice of forethought. I don't think that is present.

He has been bearing the increasing weight of the Ring for days, virtually without complaint, and it has been wearing him down, mentally and physically. He's exhausted. He's almost crushed by the responsibility he is carrying. He's walking into enemy territory, most likely terrified of capture and torture - and then, lo and behold - after facing the terror of the eyes in the tunnel and losing consciousness, he wakes up not knowing where the hell he is - he's stripped, humiliated and interrogated by orcs who tell him all the delightful torment he's in for when he gets to Lugburz. And the Ring is gone. And he's sick and still half-bemused from spider-venom. And the Ring gives him a hideously real vision of Sam as an orc.

I think all that might make the gentlest of souls just a trifle edgy.

From Pitchwife:

It's also pretty obvious that his incipient 'fading' hadn't been completely undone by Elrond's healing powers - not undone, but transformed, which may have been the only way to heal him, by diverting its tendency from wraithishness to, shall we say, faerishness?

I've often wondered about the relationship between the 'fading' from the Morgul splinter and the 'elvish' light in Frodo. This is an interesting theory.

[Ivriniel]

@Galadriel, yes there has to be something in this about Duty and the language of 'oughts' and 'musts' as very interwoven with indications of Frodo's bearing at vital points in the narrative. I'd have to agree with you about that.

I imagine the horror and hopelessness of having--even moments--of not completing the Quest must have been a very powerful influence over Frodo's thinking, yet to pursue the Quest in any case was what he did. I'm not sure, exactly, how that kind of hopelessness would have impacted his private realm of thinking and we don't see much of any of that for characters. It's dialogical, primarily, in how language shares ideas in the tomes.

@Pitchwife, yes I must agree with you about being too hard on Frodo. In fact, I did it, in part, to play 'devil's advocate' to elicit some debate. I'm reminded by reading your post of 'how' far I went at times into slam-dunking Frodo between reads of the books, only to re-discover that the story is not as dire as it got placed in the memory banks.

Yes - Gandalf did, at Elrond's position a *very* unusual take on the transparency thing. It's so very interesting, that one, and one that you never forget, after 25 reads or so of the trilogy, it remains one of the bright points in the mind. It has seemed to me that Elrond "Elf-fea-ised" the wound and made Bilbo 'a little like the Fading Eldar', or something? I've wondered if that was our first hint in the novel that Frodo and Bilbo were going to set sail for Valinor, ultimately. And yes, Frodo did remain replete with compassion, right throughout, for the greater part, and a 'schitz or two' maketh not a Ringwraith -

@Pervrinca, yes, I must say I see your points. There certainly are indications that Frodo could let the Ring go at that point. In fact, there's an argument, as seems to imply, that being chased by the Nine, hunted and having faced Wargs, a Balrog (that must have made the body fill with dread), etc, that he'd have really not wanted the burden at all.

@Jallante

That's great materials from Letters. I'm just looking through Letters myself, and was hoping someone would quote from them. Seems to me that there's hints in the materials, as you rightly point out that Frodo was.....

Muchly appreciated everyone