The Longetivity of Hobbits.

[Faramir Jones]

I was interested to read what you had to say here, Inziladun, then Belegorn:

On a tangential note, it's really amazing that Gollum the Stoor was able to live to such an advanced age with the help of the Ring. Was that too a product of his innate longevity?

That was the Ring itself. Otherwise he was still some remnant of himself after possessing it for so long. He did not always wear it when under the mountain so that may have helped in his not being totally bound to the Ring.

I agree that Gollum's longevity was due to his hobbit nature plus the Ring. While I don't have LotR to hand, I recall Gandalf telling Frodo, after recounting the story of Gollum, how he got the Ring, and how he had it for so long, that hobbits seemed as soft as butter, but as tough as old tree roots. He was honestly admitting that while he was interested in hobbits, and had known them for a long time, there was a lot about them he did not know.

Gandalf said that while he was always suspicious about the Ring, because of Bilbo lying about how he got it, he let things pass, even though that hobbit continued to look youthful for his age, by saying to himself that he was from a long-lived (for hobbits) family on his mother's side. This was a reference to the Old Took, his maternal grandfather, who lived to 130.

What I've always liked about Tolkien is that he never explicitly called Gollum a hobbit. All he was prepared to say was once that Gollum looked like a very ancient hobbit. This was to ask the question that if something like the Ring makes a mortal being from a particular race live far longer than his or her normal time span, is that person still a member of that race?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

This was to ask the question that if something like the Ring makes a mortal being from a particular race live far longer than his or her normal time span, is that person still a member of that race?

The keeper of the Ring is not fundamentally altered in what they are. A Man remains a Man, a Hobbit (or quasi-Hobbit), a Hobbit. He "borrows" Sauron's natural immortality while he bears it, and when that influence is removed, nature takes its course.
Witness how Bilbo was affected. At the time of the Council of Elrond, Bilbo was old, but still sound in mind and body. After the Ring was destroyed, he very quickly showed his age by sleeping a great deal and becoming very forgetful.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The keeper of the Ring is not fundamentally altered in what they are. A Man remains a Man, a Hobbit (or quasi-Hobbit), a Hobbit. He "borrows" Sauron's natural immortality while he bears it, and when that influence is removed, nature takes its course.
Witness how Bilbo was affected. At the time of the Council of Elrond, Bilbo was old, but still sound in mind and body. After the Ring was destroyed, he very quickly showed his age by sleeping a great deal and becoming very forgetful.

Is there any reference to a wearer of the Ring '"borrowing" Sauron's natural immortality while he wears it' in LotR? I might be mistaken, but I only recall Gandalf saying that a wearer did not die.

I'm also a little confused. You say that 'when that influence is removed, nature takes its course'. Are you referring to the person ceasing to wear the Ring, or the Ring's destruction? While Bilbo, as you say, 17 years after giving up the Ring, was still old but able, he rapidly aged once the Ring was destroyed.

However, Bilbo was at least just within a hobbit's life span, being 131 when he went over Sea. Gollum, by comparison, was the best part of 600 when he died. Despite the Ring having left him after he wore it for centuries, he was still able to leave the Misty Mountains looking for it, while feeding himself and avoiding most of his enemies. Bilbo at 111 would not have been capable of such feats.

[Zigûr]

Yes, I always got the impression that the "counterfeit immortality" conveyed on mortals by the Great Rings was a side-effect of their intended ability to resist and stay the progression of time in mortal lands.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Is there any reference to a wearer of the Ring '"borrowing" Sauron's natural immortality while he wears it' in LotR? I might be mistaken, but I only recall Gandalf saying that a wearer did not die.

The "borrowing" is nowhere explicitly stated in the books, I don't think; that's just my theory of how the life-extension would work.
The Ring's power derives from Sauron, after all. By itself, it is only an object.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I'm also a little confused. You say that 'when that influence is removed, nature takes its course'. Are you referring to the person ceasing to wear the Ring, or the Ring's destruction? While Bilbo, as you say, 17 years after giving up the Ring, was still old but able, he rapidly aged once the Ring was destroyed.

The Ring's destruction. As you note, Gollum too continued to live as long as the Ring survived. He told Sam on Mount Doom:

'And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust'.

ROTK Mount Doom

I think Gollum knew that the Ring's loss would result in his physical death.

[Faramir Jones]

You raise an interesting point, Inziladun. It appears, however, to be the case that Sauron, when making the One Ring, permanently transferred much of his power into it, to be able to bind the wearers of the other Rings of Power. For this reason, the Ring's destruction would be such that Sauron would be incapable of taking physical form again, which turned out to be the case.

This is what marked the One Ring out from being just an 'object'. If this was the case, why didn't Sauron just make a replacement 'object', instead of spending so much time looking for the original?

I agree that Gollum, due to his great age, would die very quickly if he was still alive once the Ring was destroyed.

This great age does raise an interesting issue. How was Gollum still so capable of both looking after himself and travelling despite being over 500 years old?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

This is what marked the One Ring out from being just an 'object'. If this was the case, why didn't Sauron just make a replacement 'object', instead of spending so much time looking for the original?

For one thing, Sauron had already put a great deal of his original power into the One Ring. Making something else and transferring more of his spiritual essence to it would have resulted in his further weakening.
Also, after losing the One (something he had never seriously considered likely when he made it) he would have been that much more wary of doing something like that again.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

This great age does raise an interesting issue. How was Gollum still so capable of both looking after himself and travelling despite being over 500 years old?

Two things kept him going. The Ring was still in existence, and he had his lust for it and his hate for whomever had it to sustain him.

[Belegorn]

In like manner the creations of the Ring and the Three that they built and maintained eventually went to waste. In Mordor the foundations were broken for good where they remained after Sauron's first overthrow since the Ring was not destroyed, and also the realms of the other 2 bearers of the Three.

Originally Posted by FotR; Bk. 2, Ch. 7; The Mirror of Galadriel

Do you see wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away.