Ten Year Anniversary Game: Living Thread

[Nogrod]

Form – if you wait for chances to get over 50-50 with lynching you’d need to give up lynching altogether: unless a seer reveals with some solid background knowledge on her/his status, every lynch is less than that.

I think I can see where you come from though (D1 chances are lowish), but trying to lynch people gives one the data one needs to make any inferences. So even if the chances aren’t near 50-50 (rather like 1/3 to 1/4 in practise) on Day1, just saying "let’s skip this Day" will give the wolves a free ride to do their mayhem and us others more or less clueless.

Many Day1 lynches have been unfortunate for the villagers, but more often than not very useful when backtracking on who voted who and why - and even if we can't enjoy the results of those ponderings here in the Living Thread immediately or as such to begin with, the Dead can use them. Let's not focus solely on us living on this Day1 but also in the wider scale - the Dead can use a lot of info if we give it to them. If we do not vote or make excuses to make ties there is little to tell in comparison with a situation where someone is actually facing leaving this thread - a chance nastier for the wolves than for the ordos.

Yes this game is a different beast as Agan reminded, but it is a different one also because the lynched and other dead will keep on playing - and in the end the game will be more or less decided - and is more interesting to play - in the Dead Thread (if it goes far enough). So I might just wish to stick into some gaming principles: do what you can to win and encourage others to play - that's the only way peolpe leave marks to be analysed - for the living or for the dead.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Form – if you wait for chances to get over 50-50 with lynching you’d need to give up lynching altogether: unless a seer reveals with some solid background knowledge on her/his status, every lynch is less than that.

It's not the odds alone that have me--obviously, if we lynch no one at all, the odds of us winning on Gifteds alone, even with the Wolves killing each other--approaches near-impossible odds.

Arguing that the odds never improve does less to convince me than something Thinlómien said:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Yes, but you forget the Night kills are hardly the only trail the wolves leave, and they are even less reliable in this game than in your average game since the roles are not revealed upon death. (Of course, the same goes for the usefulness of the lynches, but the lynches are our only weapon against the wolves, and while they might be killing each other, all the six wolves won't die without our help.)

It's not so much that I forgot that the kills weren't revealed as that I'd somehow failed to take that into account in thinking about statistics. Though, now that I am thinking about it, I'm not sure I've changed my mind so much as I've become even more confused.

Whatever the odds, we won't know if we've killed a wolf or innocent today--nor will we know the identities of the victims toNight. So... does it make more sense to play the odds straight (and avoid lynching toDay) or to take the shotgun approach and kill everyone available and hope that when the dust clears we've killed more than they have?

So, while I agree with Nog that backtrackings are valuable... do we have long enough to wait for them? My inclinations are leaning more than ever to lynching no one today, but I'm getting to the point of thinking I have nothing more than gut feeling to go by there.

[Formendacil]

Am I just stating the obvious when I ask what happens if the village spokesman ends up being a wolf? What sort of fail-safes are there if we choose a wolf for such a role.

[the phantom]

Form- if a WW ends up being "spokesperson" I don't really care so long as his communication with the Dead is similar to what I would've put. I mean- it's not like he can just give harmful instructions, because we'll all see them and call BS and the Dead will witness it.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

As far as the dead thread goes, personally, I think the following;

- that we, as the living, should leave the running of the dead thread to the dead players
- that we should, however, have some way of deriving information from the effects the dead thread can have on the living thread
- that, honestly, I don't really know how the two above points can be reconciled.

I can think of one primary hurdle that any plan to have the dead give us information with their extra vote every day will have to overcome - what if voting for the person the dead actually want to vote for will end up causing the living players to think erroneously, based on whatever plan is set up?

For example, say the Seer is dead and has claimed Person X as innocent, and that Person Y is a wolf. In the Living thread, Person Z has voted for Person Y, but earlier, it was stated that if the dead give their extra vote to Person Z, it should signify that Person X is a wolf.

I can't think of any real way to circumvent this problem at the moment, but it's definitely a real one (sort of like getting Manwe lynched after my death during my first run-through as Seer ).

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I began reading what I cross-posted with and had an immediate reaction to this statement of Nogrod's:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

First: the wolves are not too keen on passing to the realm of the dead. They will fight, at least a little, to not be lynched. An ordo would have no problems changing realms as the game will be quite intense and fun in the Dead Thread in a couple of days time.

I completely disagree. Whether or not the Dead Thread is as fun as the Living Thread is not the issue here; the issue is that if an ordo is about to be lynched, they know for a fact that a wolf is not. They should absolutely fight to not be lynched.

[mormegil]

It's interesting to me how much discussion has been around the dead thread and how little has been around who is looking suspicious. The thought of trying to control the dead thread from the living is somewhat absurd, really. I understand that there are many well thought out and reasoned discussions around this but the reality is there will be many unknown variables and situations that present themselves. Suffice it that the dead thread will be doing their best to influence their team to win and little what we say or ask will change their mind.

This whole day has been spent talking about the dead thread, and dang it, it now has me talking more about it. I think there is certainly wolfish influence in this. I actually don't suspect Tummy of it, even though he started the whole blasted conversation. He has a way of hijacking the first day to discuss his plans...really he tries to put in measures of control. I would think those who have helped continue the conversation are those who we should be looking at.

I can't remember who mentioned Mith and her comments about the special role. This didn't strike me as odd. It seemed very much in line and a fairly appropriate topic of discussion albeit pure speculation on the role itself. That role has made me think though I imagine it is to help us as I think Kuru felt the balance might have been too much in the favor of the wolves at this point. But again, that's just my speculation. What it can do is beyond my reasoning to figure out.

As far as suspicious:

Mac (obviously, I did vote for him)
Kath--Too little posting for my tastes and a long history
Nog--He continued the dead thread discussion while seeming very reasonable and thoughtful about it. That was the behavior that made me nervous.

A few others but I'll have to go back and review to pinpoint some detail.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I should probably just post a list of what I think about different people at the moment, but since I had already made notes (in fact making part of them during the afternoon while I was attending a roleplaying session and trying to kill a Quarut at the same time, and later on the bus home), I am going to just post them here, also for completion's sake. I still have to read through most of the last page properly, but should be back in a moment...

Aside from the "tie or not to tie" discussion and so on, of the moments that "stood out", the only weird thing about the Agan-Morm exchange to me was Greenie's reaction to it, "defensive" one:

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I don't smell Freud as much as a trolling Agan. Admittedly, I took morm's "Agan, what are you suggesting here" as not a reference to her use of "we" but to her hypothesis of the Dead Thread only being populated by Europeans, and in that regard her reply doesn't really make sense. That doesn't equal Freud-odor, though.

Just kinda defensive, because I think it seemed pretty clear that it was not meant the way Greenie is interpreting it???

As for my stance on the Day 1-tie idea, I am actually with what Nog and Greenie mentioned somewhere halfway page 3: the chance to lynch a Wolf are still good, the chance to lynch a Gifted considerably smaller, AND it will give us some info to start with, instead of zero info. We'll at least see whom different people voted, or whom they did not vote.

I perfectly understand Form's objections against it and understand his sentiment, but I am personally against the "Day 1 are useless, boo!" (which fortunately didn't appear in this game, thanks to the activity of many) because it's only that attitude which actually makes them useless. And especially in this game, once again saying the same, so chaotic game, any piece of info helps.

Because everyone can talk all they want about whether to have a tie or not, or about gardening, or about Kant, but your actions show what you truly are, not your words. Point.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't think there has been much discussion of the wildcard role. Obviously it is hard to discuss an undescribed role but it is a known unknown, as Donald Rumsfeld would say, something we know we don't know. It holds strange powers some of which might well stuff up cleverclogs voting systems.

Good to keep that in mind, but as also Lommy has said, probably not yet the time to speculate much about it. I hope the hidden role is not a Cobbler. That would seriously mess everything up so much more. (Though if so, I'd know of a good candidate... somebody who's filled half the thread with his posts. Even though they were actually constructive. But in large doses, everything becomes just spam.)

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The individual empowered by the Dead gets two votes. And has also been alluded to in subsequent conversation, this will be noted in the narration and the individual so empowered will be mentioned explicitly by name.

You didn't use the clearest wording again, O Great Mod. But since you used the word "empowered", so does it mean that unknown person actually gets the extra "weight" to their vote? So if I am the one selected by the Dead, and I vote for the Phantom, the Phantom suddenly jumps up as the candidate for the lynch by two votes instead of just one? Because I was all the time under the impression that the fellow gets simply one more vote leading to his death. Apparently not???

Post with what I actually think of people coming soon.

EDIT: x-ed since about... somewhere around Kath's vote, and I didn't really even read all the posts around it properly yet, like I said. Gotta read everything here now.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

For example, say the Seer is dead and has claimed Person X as innocent, and that Person Y is a wolf. In the Living thread, Person Z has voted for Person Y, but earlier, it was stated that if the dead give their extra vote to Person Z, it should signify that Person X is a wolf.

I can't think of any real way to circumvent this problem at the moment, but it's definitely a real one (sort of like getting Manwe lynched after my death during my first run-through as Seer ).

That's only going to be a problem, though, if ONLY person Z voted for person Y.
Which either means a very small village (as in, the last day) or that person Y has no chance of getting lynched anyway. Most days the village will be big enough that the dead will have lots of options.

Folks, please stop assuming people are trying to dictate to the dead! It's all the way back in post #34: the idea is that the dead have a choice. That way the dead can both cast a vote and send an additional message.
And as for me, if/when I end up on the dead thread, I'd prefer to have as much ability to get information to the living as possible. In fact, I would be rather frustrated with (and suspicious of) anyone who muddles that process. It doesn't matter who decides how the message will be sent. It doesn't require elaborate choosing of spokespeople, just an agreement well before the deadline. The strategy won't make sense if the village gets very small, because the extra vote will carry too much weight in its own right, but early on, it could be very valuable.

It's interesting how many people are arguing that it either can't be done or is somehow oppressive. And by interesting, I mean suspicious.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

The village spokesperson could be a for-the-DAY position, so that

a) we don't leave the Village in a single person's hand for too long;
b) we can have an additional test re the Dead thread role-knowing thingy. That is, 'vote for Person X if NIGHT kill A was a Wolf, vote for Person Y if NIGHT kill B was a Wolf, vote for person Z if previous DAY's lynch was a Wolf, AND vote for person W if the current spokesperson is a Wolf. If neither are Wolves, vote for person N.'

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Am I just stating the obvious when I ask what happens if the village spokesman ends up being a wolf? What sort of fail-safes are there if we choose a wolf for such a role.

Actually, it's not a problem if the village spokesperson is a wolf. He needs to state what the dead should do to communicate what on the thread, and if the dead have agreed to comply, they will communicate that. The wolf can tell the dead to give us information that he thinks would be misleading or useful for the wolves, but he has to do it in a manner that won't give away his role. So, there's little danger in that, unless of course say two wolves of the pack are dead and the third is the spokesperson, and they have prearranged to give the village false information of a specific sort, but really how likely is that?

I think the bigger problem remains that both the living and the dead should be happy with the spokesperson arrangement. The phantom suggested the dead should have leeway in the arrangement which theoretically would be good, but in practice I only see it as making the system (even more) unreliable. So the way I see it, either the (future) dead pledge themselves to drudgery and assisting the village, or then we will have rather unreliable information. Personally I prefer the first option out of the two, but a middle ground would of course be the most profitable (also because I'm a little worried the dead won't be motivated to participate if participating only means doing as you're told).

I think we can keep talking about it toMorrow, though, and shouldn't get too sidetracked as we still need to vote toDay. (Not trying to start a discussion and kill it instantly, but rather speaking as an East European whose bedtime is past already...)


edit: xed with everyone

[satansaloser2005]

Ah yes, now I remember why I don't ignore the thread for several hours. O_O

I'm here, and I'm reading, but I have to go again in half an hour or so and will either vote by that time or not at all.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Agan

ThinLOLmien is back! So I'm, what, your second oldest friend and suddenly you don't understand why I'd look at something from the villain's point of view? I understood morm's meaning perfectly and chose to continue the joke as I did because it's fun and joking about being a wolf is the closest I can get to being one.

Seriously though, just what would a wolf gain from saying "Hello I'm a wolf" when it would lead the other pack straight to her door? I'd imagine in a game like this, they will go to lengths to look as ordinary as possible, and I just don't understand why you think I'd have reacted like that as a wolf. Granted I'm tired but your trigger-happy jump is so poorly reasoned it genuinely annoys me and gives you a free ride to the top of my suspect list.

1) I dislike my I'm-not-taking-myself-too-seriously personality being used as a way to discredit my arguments (like, I may be chatty and benevolent and a bit of a clown, but it doesn't mean I'm stupid and you know it and you're trying to use it to your advantage by framing this as "silly Lommy is being silly again" and that irks me)

2) I didn't suggest you intentionally said "hello I'm a wolf" (even though - now that you played the "why would a wolf say that" card I might reconsider...), I suggest you made a Freudian slip of sorts by accidentally revealing your wolvish perspective. And that has absolutely nothing to do with whether you fancy being a villain or not.

3) Well, you also cemented your - rather whimsically assigned; it was the typical Day1 level of reasoning - place on the top of my suspicion list by being so defensive. If you were innocent, you wouldn't be half as annoyed by me remarking on your wolvish perspective, and I suspect you're just enjoying your wolfing in this game with a nice pack and even the tiniest prospect that your enjoyment might be cut short both makes you fight back and gets on your nerves because you dislike being "busted" on something so trivial, especially if you indeed intentionally chose to comment on morm's joke from that angle and I was accusing you on the wrong grounds.

++Agan

This is undoubtedly the best lead I have toDay.


edit: xed with everyone after Sally

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nog

An ordo would have no problems changing realms as the game will be quite intense and fun in the Dead Thread in a couple of days time.

Speak for yourself - personally I'm not looking forward to following two threads and trying to use my very limited powers for the best while not really being able to contribute to the outcome of the game and hitting my head against the wall when the village does something I consider stupid.

Originally Posted by Nog, emphasis mine

I'm not willing to tie my hands at this point of the game to any such folly - or willing to give any lycantrophe a get-away basing her/his actions or words on a such a thing.

That's a good point.

Basically - the intended use of the dead thread is that the dead, who know more than the living, can tip the scale of the village vote by giving an innocent or innocent-looking person a double vote. What we have been discussing is if there's a way to use the dead thread even more to our advantage, by gathering information from their votes. I still think it's a good topic to discuss, but to be realist, the most likely use for the dead thread will be the intended one.

We should keep discussing it, but as morm so nicely points out, not on the expense of trying to find wolves. To be fair, I don't think that's a problem toDay though because we have to talk about something to give any vibes to each other toDay. If people abstain from voting or vote just to create a tie while not seemingly putting any energy in finding the baddies, *then* I might start getting worried.

PS.

Originally Posted by Agan

Her village spokesperson idea was decent but I'm partly kind of offended that she chose to question my intelligence by holding a joke against me and partly suspicious of her "ERMAHGERD SLIP!!!111 Did ya see a SLIP!!!111" approach which would probably feel forced to me even if it wasn't about me.

I think we can start a club then because *I* am a little offended you continuously try to frame me as stupid and harmless. I think it's a good strategy on your part, but I dislike it nonetheless. As for my supposed misinterpretation, I still think you could have clarified it in a lot less (passive) aggressive way, and it's likely you resorted to that because it pushed your buttons, which it wouldn't have if you actually were innocent. That's all I have to say about the topic toDay.


edit: xed with morm's #159 and onwards

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I don't think I've ever remained calm through any game, ever. Day 1, sure, but eventually I will get mad at someone and then Lommy springs the trap!

In my experience, you usually get mad when you feel pressured, and you feel more pressured more often when you're a wolf. That's what I meant. But in a way you are right - there's been little pressure on you yet so maybe I shouldn't be judging yet. You just seem quite relaxed and reasonable so far, so I have little reason to suspect you.

[Macalaure]

I like the points morm and Boro raise about Nogrod. Feeling better about morm now as well.

Leaning towards voting for Aganzir at the moment.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Boro

The bottom line is a Seer living through Day 1 with 4 dreams is a better asset and powerful gifted Seer than any village has arguably ever had. As miniscule as the chance is, it's not something I want to leave to chance, on a Day 1 lynch where we won't know anything about until later (or possibly never).

I don't think lynching someone today changes the odds of the Seer dying toDay or toNight all that appreciably, Boro. I especially don't think it changes the odds enough to forego a 1-in-4 chance of killing a wolf today. Someone more numbers-oriented than I could run the math on that, probably, but the fact that our lynch potential is limited is enough for me to think we should take a shot at a wolf today.

[Rikae]

I would think the Lommy vs. Agan stuff looked wolf-on-wolfy, if this were a game where that made sense.

Missed this:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Basically - the intended use of the dead thread is that the dead, who know more than the living, can tip the scale of the village vote by giving an innocent or innocent-looking person a double vote. What we have been discussing is if there's a way to use the dead thread even more to our advantage, by gathering information from their votes. I still think it's a good topic to discuss, but to be realist, the most likely use for the dead thread will be the intended one.

I can't speak for Kuru but when I came up with the idea for the first such game, I was kind of hoping the players would try to use the dead vote in interesting ways like this. So, in a way, it is "the intended use".

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Am I just stating the obvious when I ask what happens if the village spokesman ends up being a wolf? What sort of fail-safes are there if we choose a wolf for such a role.

Before anyone gives me a solid argument why we should go for an imagined "village spokesman" and do what s/he says, or think the dead will follow her/his thoughts / advice / commands / position (aka. that we should interpret what the dead mean based upon whether they give the "spokesperson" the extra-vote or not), I'll be against it and do my best to thwart any actions proposed or interpretations of facts based on such an entity whether living or dead - unless, of course, there is this solid argument why I should think otherwise.

I'm not willing to tie my hands at this point of the game to any such folly - or willing to give any lycantrophe a get-away basing her/his actions or words on a such a thing.

We need to trust our wits and ability to think clearly - which this gang should be capable of - and not tie our hands into some general plans and rules (or give the baddies a chance to claim they did it) some people come by on Day1.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Before anyone gives me a solid argument why we should go for an imagined "village spokesman" and do what s/he says, or think the dead will follow her/his thoughts / advice / commands / position (aka. that we should interpret what the dead mean based upon whether they give the "spokesperson" the extra-vote or not), I'll be against it and do my best to thwart any actions proposed or interpretations of facts based on such an entity whether living or dead - unless, of course, there is this solid argument why I should think otherwise.

I'm not willing to tie my hands at this point of the game to any such folly - or willing to give any lycantrophe a get-away basing her/his actions or words on a such a thing.

We need to trust our wits and ability to think clearly - which this gang should be capable of - and not tie our hands into some general plans and rules (or give the baddies a chance to claim they did it) some people come by on Day1.

In general, I agree with this--which, considering we've disagreed on the merits of lynching on Day 1, and given that agreeing with Nog is historically somewhat troubling, I find somewhat disconcerting. However, since we're trying (against all Day 1 conventions) to think rationally, I shall not not let that sway against my prior thoughts unduly. At best, I think the spokesman idea likely to be one that easily goes astray. At worst, it allows living wolves to steer the village into an obsession with a semi-certainty.

[Aganzir]

It's way past 2 and I have work tomorrow.

I liked Nog's points in #141, but Shasta has a good point as well.

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

The village spokesperson could be a for-the-DAY position, so that

a) we don't leave the Village in a single person's hand for too long;
b) we can have an additional test re the Dead thread role-knowing thingy. That is, 'vote for Person X if NIGHT kill A was a Wolf, vote for Person Y if NIGHT kill B was a Wolf, vote for person Z if previous DAY's lynch was a Wolf, AND vote for person W if the current spokesperson is a Wolf. If neither are Wolves, vote for person N.'

Something like this could work. However we'd still face the risk of lynching somebody we didn't want as a result. And if we do decide to employ this system, we need to make sure the dead have a sufficient number of options for situations where information can't for some reason be delivered.

I'm only worried about wolves hijacking the information delivery system - even if it only happens once, the results may be severe.

Anyway bedtime.

++Lommy

She saw a straw and grasped at it.

Her village spokesperson idea was decent but I'm partly kind of offended that she chose to question my intelligence by holding a joke against me and partly suspicious of her "ERMAHGERD SLIP!!!111 Did ya see a SLIP!!!111" approach which would probably feel forced to me even if it wasn't about me.

I'm still in favour of the no-lynch, but I wouldn't mind seeing Lommy bite the dust.

[Nogrod]

About the Dead.

The goodie-dead will try to make the village win - the evil-dead will try to help their wolfpack first and fight against the innocents in general (aka. possibly siding with their rivals if the situation is benefical for it).


The dead will give an extra-vote to someone.

Based on their knowledge and ratios between the good and the evil - and the knowledge they have on each other and therefore the trust they share or do not - they'll give it to someone based on their vote.

So there are a lot of factors as to what ends up being their "decision".

If the goodies rule there, then in the best case they'll most probably give the extra-vote to someone who they deem innocent and whose extra-vote would lynch a baddie they think or know is one - whatever the Living say or think they can require them to do - or what any "spokesperson" nominated by some villagers does.

But then there are a hundred of "buts"...

[satansaloser2005]

Nutshell version: I would rather lynch someone toDay than orchestrate a tie. While yes, a tie can be handy later on, right now our odds of getting a wolf are as high as they're likely to get, and to squander our opportunity to fight back and allow the baddies two kills in the Night seems wasteful to me. Frittering away our lynches before the dead can impact them really only benefits the wolves.

Crap. I got distracted. I'll give another quick read, but I may not end up voting. Sorry.


x'd since more or less my last

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Before anyone gives me a solid argument why we should go for an imagined "village spokesman" and do what s/he says, or think the dead will follow her/his thoughts / advice / commands / position (aka. that we should interpret what the dead mean based upon whether they give the "spokesperson" the extra-vote or not), I'll be against it and do my best to thwart any actions proposed or interpretations of facts based on such an entity whether living or dead - unless, of course, there is this solid argument why I should think otherwise.

I may be wrong, but my understanding was that by "village spokesperson", people meant the person who states what various dead votes will mean, not the person who gets the dead vote (the empowered person).

Assuming that, I agree with the phantom: the spokesperson is whoever gives a reasonable list when the voting is done. It doesn't matter whether person X or person Y gets the extra vote, when both voted for person Z. It also doesn't matter which meaning we assign to empowering person X or person Y, as long as we're clear on it before DL.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Assuming that, I agree with the phantom: the spokesperson is whoever gives a reasonable list when the voting is done. It doesn't matter whether person X or person Y gets the extra vote, when both voted for person Z. It also doesn't matter which meaning we assign to empowering person X or person Y, as long as we're clear on it before DL.

That sounds like even more far-fetched and flimsy... (Ok I need to check the rules and what was indeed proposed tomorrow - but with my understanding of the suggestion now it sounds ridiculous)

The votes so far.

Nilp -> Nilp
Rune -> Formendacil
Mormegil -> Macalaure
Lalaith -> Legate
Kath -> Formendacil 2
Aganzir -> Lommy
Lommy -> Aganzir


A pause for thought and then a vote.

[Nogrod]

Since Aganzir looks far more suspicious to me than Form (who has two votes already) and no one seems to pick on my "let's send the phantom to be checked by the dead" -idea, I'll go with

++ Aganzir

She felt wrong all Day, too happy to be the one who is on top of everything and her totally unnecessary - and weird - "liking my points" when she did not (and was getting to sleep) looks too suspicious. Like trying to feel good as the point of making such a "point".

But let's make sure we know what tp is sooner than later - or there is a firm chance we regret not doing it.

Good night and see you in one of the threads toMorrow.

[Formendacil]

The votes so far.

Nilp -> Nilp
Rune -> Formendacil
Mormegil -> Macalaure
Lalaith -> Legate
Kath -> Formendacil 2
Aganzir -> Lommy
Lommy -> Aganzir
Legate -> A Little Green
Nogrod -> Aganzir 2



Nine votes. Assuming nothing comes in under the wire, my vote will make ten. That still leaves 14, which is more than enough to tidal wave all that has come before--but we're into the final hour and who knows if all shall vote?

++Formendacil

I still think a tied vote with no lynch is the way to go, so I'm going to put myself up one more. It's either that or not vote at all, and I think not voting would be a worse cop-out than voting for myself. I do think Aganzir could be guilty, but I don't think it strongly enough to put her in the lead. I'd rather trust the village to tie us up--at the very least, maybe this will force the Silent Majority to make a decision between lynching or not.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I have this flippant wish that, when some of you are Dead, you'd get frustrated about having to give crucial information to the village and not knowing a way to do so in a non-misinterpretable fashion, only to realise that if only you'd discussed in more constructive terms how to organise this information conduit while we are all still here there should have been a better way than hoping they get your attempts to move the coin.

Anyway, for this game, I like lists. As I've said previously, I think the biggest targets of NIGHT kills are those who seem to know more about the village's composition than a blind Ordo, and so Wolves would probably hide under a veneer of being clueless or narrow-minded to hide their opinion of the village as a whole.

Here is mine ( Boro):

Koala

• Rikae - probably because we share a lot of ideas and I like people who agree with me
• Boromir88 - ditto. Also, I stole this list heading from him.
• Mithalwen - is my mother and I would never suspect her

Shark-infested waters

• phantom - his ideas got the whole village moving past the banter stage, and I agree with what he's trying to do. Has also posted a list. But he's the phantom, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
• mormegil - has made reasonable innocent villager-like arguments
• Shastanis Althreduin - ditto
• Nerwen - disagreed with the vote-tying plan, but argued for some means of communication between the living and the Dead.
• Loslote - same as Nerwen
• Legate of Amon Lanc - has posted a list. Just saddened that he doesn't remember me (I thought I was a, ah, distinctive character. ;_; )
• Macalaure - has rebutted my argument for my suspicion (i.e., I am illiterate, lynch me), as well as made a list

Swarm of killer beers [sic]

• Aganzir
• Thinlómien - The Finnish friends' little spat... well, they are friends, and I generally have a shorter fuse when it comes to my friends. But I echo others' sentiment that it looks Wolf-on-Wolf. (Remember, 'Wolf-on-Wolf' in this village doesn't necessarily mean 'artificially contrived'. Two Packs!) I trust Lommy more because list.
• Nogrod - Oh, man... I initially had him in the previous section (pulling out the Voltaire quote even), but... his vehement argument against some form of clue-giving between the living and the Dead is troubling. Post-Mandos game trauma?

Komodo dragon

• Kath - Where do I put people whom I have no read on? I'll put them here because I haven't seen a Komodo dragon.
• Lalaith
• Sallykins
• McCaber
• Rune Son of Bjarne
• Firefoot - has made a substantial contribution to the discussion of the vote-tying plan, but otherwise I have no read on her.
• A Little Green - disagreed with the vote-tying plan, contributed the Agan-Lommy fight, so a bunch of contradictory signals from her.
• Formendacil - the grump (sorry) of the 'DAY 1 ' movement (whereas I'm the suicidal lunatic of the movement). Self-voting with a purpose is fun. (Also, I forgot the Mythomancer role. ) Because he's a true DAY 1 warrior, I have no read on him toDAY.
• Gwathagor - scared because I'll beat him again in Arda Cup phantasy (has not yet posted)

Godzilla

• Nilpaurion Felagund - lynch him
• Kuruharan

Not that this matters, cos I've already voted.

[Boromir88]

Assuming that, I agree with the phantom: the spokesperson is whoever gives a reasonable list when the voting is done. It doesn't matter whether person X or person Y gets the extra vote, when both voted for person Z. It also doesn't matter which meaning we assign to empowering person X or person Y, as long as we're clear on it before DL. - Rikae

We should be able to set up a fail safe too, just in case relayed information via the Dead vote gets tampered with, or in the event the Dead are innocents who know the identity of a living wolf, or a living gifted, we don't know and thus vote accordingly to lynch/save someone. Some sort of fall back to let the Living know "We the Dead, for whatever reason, did not get the information your spokesperson requested. Abort and disregard our vote."

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

We should be able to set up a fail safe too, just in case relayed information via the Dead vote gets tampered with, or in the event the Dead are innocents who know the identity of a living wolf, or a living gifted, we don't know and thus vote accordingly to lynch/save someone. Some sort of fall back to let the Living know "We the Dead, for whatever reason, did not get the information your spokesperson requested. Abort and disregard our vote."

Yeah, that's what I was getting at with "at least 3 people in the wagon" earlier. So there is a "neutral" way for the dead to join that particular wagon, if they wish, too.
So, we shouldn't be putting the "signals" into bandwagons of less than 3.

Nog, the only way it's flimsy and far-fetched is if someone insists on jumping in and arguing needlessly about what vote should mean what (and anyone who does that looks very, very furry). As long as the dead have enough options, whatever the first person says should be fine.