*A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin*

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

My outline with the double denial follows the Lost Tale version more or less.

Ah, yes, I see that now.

But does not matter much since we are now beyond taking that one. Your proposal, Aiwendil, does bear the problem that it neither will serve gondowe's desire to have Turgon only once deny Tuor's biding nor does it take into account that it might be that there probably now no difrence between prepairing for war and prepairing for flight to the sea.

I'm not convinced that there is now no difference between preparing for war and preparing for flight to the sea. Can you explain your reasons for coming to this conclusion?

[Findegil]

It was based on gondowe's input. If we accept that Ulmos first intent was to lead the Gondolindrim out of Gondolin than for me that means together with the promise of Ulmo that the Valar would send help for the battle against Morgoth, that the starting point for such a battle cold only be near the sea. And in which other place than the havens of Sirion would Turgon find a safe place for his people in that time?

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I'm afraid that, to me, it seems too great a liberty and too large a leap for us to insert explicit direction for Turgon to leave Gondolin in the counsel of war. I agree that the abandonment of Gondolin may be implied in the urging to war. But if it is implied already, then I don't think we do any harm by omitting explicit mention of it.

If Gondowe is adamantly against having any interruption by Turgon between, perhaps we could adopt the following outline:

- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory).
- Tuor further says that if Turgon refuses this counsel, then he should abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this (the latter) advice.
- Turgon refuses both the first counsel and the second counsel.

I do hope Gondowe will return at some point and explain his reluctance for the two counsels to be separated by Turgon's first refusal.

[gondowe]

Hello again, as I said in the General comments thread, recently discovered that the forum was running on again. So:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I do hope Gondowe will return at some point and explain his reluctance for the two counsels to be separated by Turgon's first refusal.

I said in a previous post that I agreed with last Findegil's text in the history information. I thought (and I think) was better because Ulmo's message must be (in my opinion, in the "last" conception, no that of LT) in only one breath and then the cloak vanish. And for me narratively looks better. But, repeat, I agree with Findegil's text, it tells the same at the end.

Greetings.