The Book of Lost Tales Part I: A Readthrough

[Puddleglum]

I, too, read "coeval" as "equal in power" when I first read Silmarillion (also as a teenager when it first came out). It was only later I learned more about "coeval" and I think now that Tolkien really did understand it's nuance and use it intentionally meaning that they were "created" together as (dare I suggest) non-identical twins - one of whom had greater gifts but was motivated by increasing his own position and power, while the other was wiser and more humble (more willing to seek the glory of his father, rather than his own).

Actually, I wonder now if Tolkien's knowledge of the twins Esau & Jacob may have informed his subcreation of Melkor & Manwe. [note, I don't say inspired - but may have provided insights he used in giving them their qualities]

A few related quotes:

• "Mightiest among (the Ainur) is Melkor" (implying mightier than Manwe - though not, necessarily, more noble in spirit).
• "In the powers and knowledge of all the other Valar (Melkor) had part". Not said of Manwe - implying Melkor has more raw strength and knowledge than Manwe.
• "Manwe and Melkor" were bretheren in the thought of Illuvatar" even though "mightiest of those who came into the World was, in his beginning, Melkor."
• In the Valaquenta it's interesting that Tulkas is the strongest of the Valar (implying stronger than Manwe) even though Melkor is called the Mightiest of the Ainur (therefore also of the Valar who were a subset of Ainur) - hence stronger than Tulkas (at least, in his beginnings). Implying again that Melkor was stronger than Manwe.

Also, I seem to recall something in one of the HoME books about Manwe, after Melkor's first defeat at Utumno, being surprised how easily Melkor was beaten - not realizing how his power had become disbursed in the mastering of Arda and expecting him to be FAR more powerful then himself.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

[*]In the Valaquenta it's interesting that Tulkas is the strongest of the Valar (implying stronger than Manwe) even though Melkor is called the Mightiest of the Ainur (therefore also of the Valar who were a subset of Ainur) - hence stronger than Tulkas (at least, in his beginnings). Implying again that Melkor was stronger than Manwe.[/LIST]

Do you think there's a distinction here between pure brawn and overarching force?

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Do you think there's a distinction here between pure brawn and overarching force?

Well, pure brawn fits into the 'who would win a fight', whereas actual power is more 'who has more reach, and more power of more things'.

Tulkas is basically all brawn. Melkor had legitimate power, and although he was defeated, that only angered him, rather than ruined his plans completely.

Melkor appears to be among the smartest of the Valar, and it was specifically stated in one of the books that Melkor had the most power and knowledge after learning from Eru Illuvatar.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Also, I seem to recall something in one of the HoME books about Manwe, after Melkor's first defeat at Utumno, being surprised how easily Melkor was beaten - not realizing how his power had become disbursed in the mastering of Arda and expecting him to be FAR more powerful then himself.

Yep it's in Morgoth's Ring:

"So that they come at last to Utumno itself and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze."

But this is a later development, coming as it does from the 1955 essay 'Melkor Morgoth' in which Professor Tolkien states outright "Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature" and "Later, he must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined."
I must admit that I'm not one hundred per cent about this, but is it not the case that originally Manwë and Melkor were conceived of as being equally powerful, then at a later stage Melkor became more powerful than him? Until of course he was conceived of as being more powerful than all the Valar put together. And by 'the Valar' does it mean just the Valar, or all Ainur?

I get the impression Professor Tolkien felt that for the 'metaphysical maths' to work regarding Morgoth constantly imbuing his essence into his servants, the earth, etc, and still be at least somewhat formidable, his original power would have to be extraordinarily great.

[Galin]

I have to admit I didn't think about the word really, in my response.

I didn't mean to cofuse the discussion in any case

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Do you think there's a distinction here between pure brawn and overarching force?

I do think there is, so the Tulkas/Melkor/Manwe comparison (at least) is less than clear (could be some mixing of apples & oranges). Good point.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

but is it not the case that originally Manwë and Melkor were conceived of as being equally powerful

Well, I'm not sure if anything Tolkien wrote directly points to them being equal in might at any point in the story development - if you know of one, I'd be interested in it.

I wonder what we would have grown up thinking about their relative power if Tolkien had never used the word "coeval". Would we have gotten the idea of equal might somewhere else? Or would we have grown up thinking of Melkor as the single most mighty Ainu (the arch-prince, as it were) whose power went to his head?

For my part, I've sort of grown up thinking of Melkor as Lucifer to Manwe's Michael (or Gabriel?) - given Tolkien's Catholic background - so it could be I'm influenced by that.

Originally Posted by Galin

I didn't mean to confuse the discussion in any case

I never thought you confused anything - just gave an opportunity for discussion of an obscure (to modern minds) word - which I kind of enjoy

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

I never thought you confused anything - just gave an opportunity for discussion of an obscure (to modern minds) word - which I kind of enjoy

Thanks! However it's not confuse but cofuse... did the 'quote function' change the spelling?

I mean, don't tell me it's not a word (it might not be, b'just don't tell me)!

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galin

Thanks! However it's not confuse but cofuse... did the 'quote function' change the spelling?
I mean, don't tell me it's not a word (it might not be, b'just don't tell me)!

No, that was my mental spell-checker :/. Since you used "cofuse" intentionally, I assume you meant mingling (fusing) the separate discussions. Good choice of word (whether real or not)!

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

No, that was my mental spell-checker :/. Since you used "cofuse" intentionally, I assume you meant mingling (fusing) the separate discussions. Good choice of word (whether real or not)!

I was confused by that as well. It makes a lot more sense now.