Did Denethor see Frodo captured in the Palantir? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Zigûr · 08-22-2014, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfirin

On the other hand, if he could play into Denthors fears so much as to focus on eliminating Aragorn as soon as he arrived or even go so far as to subtly insinuate himself deep enough in Dethethor's mind to, in a virtual sense, suggest the following "You know, if you turn traitor and ally Minas Tirith WITH me, we can get rid of this last threat to your rule and you and your sons can rule the city forever unthreatened. My servant made your son sick, do you not believe I could make him well again. Continue to oppose me and you are doomed, one way or another. Join me and your line is secure.

The idea that Sauron showed Denethor his doom in Aragorn's rightful kingship is an intriguing one, and I quite like your thinking. This specific bit above about Denethor actually turning traitor, however, I consider to be most unlikely. I'm sure we're familiar with Letter 183 regarding Denethor:

Quote:

It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked.

Hence why I think Denethor was in a no-win situation: submit to Aragorn and lose his position, or submit to Sauron and lose it. I think he hated Sauron too much as his chief "political" rival to ever consider alliance with him or even feign it the way Saruman did. Sauron and Aragorn would probably be no different in his mind: two powerful people who could oust him from his position as (in his prideful view, at least) the eminent leader in Middle-earth.

Alfirin · 08-23-2014, 05:13 AM

I actually agree that Denethor actually turning traitor is highly unlikely; I was merely suggesting that Sauron had adopted this plan hoping he could turn Denethor traitor, or at least, to set him on some path of action where he would squander what little defensive advantage Minas Tirith in some plan to get rid of his "rival" Aragorn or raze it to the ground just to deny it to another. That latter might be acceptable to Sauron. While he certainly wanted Minas Tirith conquered, I'm not sure if having it still more or less intact would have been as important to him. He probably would have liked to have, as Frodo put it "Two Minas Morgul's grinning out at each other across a barren waste." (or something like that) but I doubt he would consider it essential; one Minas Morgul and a pile of ruins would probably be OK too in his book.
Come to think of it Denethor might have been delusional enough by this point to think Aragorn might not stop the city being destroyed as well, in a literal not metaphorical sense. Old and venerable as Minas Tirith is, given that Aragorn has spent most of his life in the North, Denethor might assume that he plans to let Minas Tirth go to rot and create a new royal seat for himself in Arnor; closer to "home". Gandalf seems OK with letting the city be destroyed, and Aragorn is clearly in league with Gandalf, so maybe he's OK with the end of the city too.

FerniesApple · 08-23-2014, 08:06 AM

Interesting speculations.

I for one think that Sauron used Denethors pride against him. If for example Faramir had had the palantir his lack of pride would have saved him from the folly and madness that overcame Denethor. the pride of Denethor meant that the palantir became like looking through a glass darkly, it obscured and it warped whatever Denethor saw. Faramirs purity would have meant a clear vision. Rather like the pure soul of Frodo meant his heart was not tainted by the Ring until the very end. The seeds of pride ruined many a noble man, it ruined Boromir, it ruined Saruman, it ruined Denethor.

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08-23-2014, 05:13 AM	#2
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	I actually agree that Denethor actually turning traitor is highly unlikely; I was merely suggesting that Sauron had adopted this plan hoping he could turn Denethor traitor, or at least, to set him on some path of action where he would squander what little defensive advantage Minas Tirith in some plan to get rid of his "rival" Aragorn or raze it to the ground just to deny it to another. That latter might be acceptable to Sauron. While he certainly wanted Minas Tirith conquered, I'm not sure if having it still more or less intact would have been as important to him. He probably would have liked to have, as Frodo put it "Two Minas Morgul's grinning out at each other across a barren waste." (or something like that) but I doubt he would consider it essential; one Minas Morgul and a pile of ruins would probably be OK too in his book. Come to think of it Denethor might have been delusional enough by this point to think Aragorn might not stop the city being destroyed as well, in a literal not metaphorical sense. Old and venerable as Minas Tirith is, given that Aragorn has spent most of his life in the North, Denethor might assume that he plans to let Minas Tirth go to rot and create a new royal seat for himself in Arnor; closer to "home". Gandalf seems OK with letting the city be destroyed, and Aragorn is clearly in league with Gandalf, so maybe he's OK with the end of the city too.

08-23-2014, 08:06 AM	#3
FerniesApple Haunting Spirit Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 92	Interesting speculations. I for one think that Sauron used Denethors pride against him. If for example Faramir had had the palantir his lack of pride would have saved him from the folly and madness that overcame Denethor. the pride of Denethor meant that the palantir became like looking through a glass darkly, it obscured and it warped whatever Denethor saw. Faramirs purity would have meant a clear vision. Rather like the pure soul of Frodo meant his heart was not tainted by the Ring until the very end. The seeds of pride ruined many a noble man, it ruined Boromir, it ruined Saruman, it ruined Denethor.