Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Belegorn]

A few things.

Regarding the staffs of the Istari, if they were intricately linked to a wizard's power, why did Saruman not take Gandalf's staff when he imprisoned him? I do not recall ever seeing a Maia or Vala having the ability to take or diminish the powers of another Maia. Has this been accounted possible in the annals of Arda?

I'm not certain of the idea of the native powers of the Istari being restricted by their embodiment. Rather their embodiment was meant "to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men" [UT; The Istari]. I think they were not to use their powers to have the Children of Eru heed them under duress and to not appear too grand, thus coming in humble bodies, that is, as older men.

Originally Posted by Appendix B: The Third Age

they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.

Originally Posted by UT; The Istari

their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advice and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavor to dominate and corrupt.

@ Moon yes they feared Moria and Boromir did not wish to go to Lothlórien either.

Your 2nd quote by Aragorn again does not sound like his concern was specifically a death sentence.

"I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" [FotR; A Journey in the Dark]

"Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true!" [FotR; Lothlórien]

What was it he was speaking of when he said beware? Was it "imminent death" or something else which just happened to lead to it?

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

A few things.

Regarding the staffs of the Istari, if they were intricately linked to a wizard's power, why did Saruman not take Gandalf's staff when he imprisoned him? I do not recall ever seeing a Maia or Vala having the ability to take or diminish the powers of another Maia. Has this been accounted possible in the annals of Arda?

I'm not certain of the idea of the native powers of the Istari being restricted by their embodiment. Rather their embodiment was meant "to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men" [UT; The Istari]. I think they were not to use their powers to have the Children of Eru heed them under duress and to not appear too grand, thus coming in humble bodies, that is, as older men.





@ Moon yes they feared Moria and Boromir did not wish to go to Lothlórien either.

Your 2nd quote by Aragorn again does not sound like his concern was specifically a death sentence.

"I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" [FotR; A Journey in the Dark]

"Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true!" [FotR; Lothlórien]

What was it he was speaking of when he said beware? Was it "imminent death" or something else which just happened to lead to it?

I think it is fair to say Aragorn feared for the fate of Gandalf for the worst if they entered Moria. Otherwise he would not have made such a meal of warning him as the strongest of the Company especially. Depends what you make of ''Beware'' and ''Alas that I spoke true''. To me it suggests, I fear for your life, and I told you so.

[Belegorn]

There are a couple of seers I know of. Malbeth The Seer and Tar-Palantir, the 24th King of Númenor were such. Malbeth has two prophecies I know of, one concerning Arvedui and the fate of the Northern Dúnedain, and the 2nd concerning Aragorn. These are instances of foresight among the Dúnedain, namely seers. There is also an instance of the Lossoth concerning Arvedui.

Originally Posted by Appendix A: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain

the counsel of the Lossoth was good, by chance or by foresight... So perished Arvedui

Also Aragorn's mother "had in a measure the foresight of her people" [Appendix A].

I'd suggest you take a look at that article by Tolkien I put a link to.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

A few things.

Regarding the staffs of the Istari, if they were intricately linked to a wizard's power, why did Saruman not take Gandalf's staff when he imprisoned him?

A good question; an equally good question is why Gandalf the White was reluctant to surrender his staff in Edoras when asked to do so on Grima's orders. Perhaps Grima was merely acting on folklore describing the power of a wizard's staff, or perhaps he had insider's knowledge from his service with Saruman.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

AI do not recall ever seeing a Maia or Vala having the ability to take or diminish the powers of another Maia. Has this been accounted possible in the annals of Arda?

Not explicitly that I recall, but Gandalf the White certainly did something to Saruman. He seemed fairly diminished after being cast out of the Order. But, yes, I admit it is entirely a personal interpretation.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'm not certain of the idea of the native powers of the Istari being restricted by their embodiment. Rather their embodiment was meant "to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men" [UT; The Istari]. I think they were not to use their powers to have the Children of Eru heed them under duress and to not appear too grand, thus coming in humble bodies, that is, as older men.

Once again, this is personal interpretation based on my reading between the lines here. I am convinced that they were not simply forbidden to use their full power, but that their full power was unavailable to them. If their restraint relied solely upon ther compliance with the dictates of ther mission, Saruman would have been a much more dangerous enemy, and I think would have demonstrated more power than he did. One or two full exercises of his Maiarin strength would have gone a long way toward making him a more credible threat in Middle-earth.

[Mithalwen]

But by the time Gandalf, had been "sent back" and had perhabs was, for once acting as the arbiter of the authority they were both subject or at least answerable to.

[Nerwen]

Let’s get back to the original question, “Should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest?”

The answer seems clear: yes. Yes, he should have. For then, instead of further tedious footslogging, we could have had an awesome fantasy cop show, featuring Aragorn as the Middle-earth equivalent of the angry police captain!
(Site generates phrases typifying the stock character, e.g., “The Angry Police Captain just threw his mug at you”, “The Angry Police Captain thinks your partner is getting too close on this one”, “The Angry Police Captain takes it black with three sugars”.)

Much of this is easily adapted. Thus:

The Angry Ranger Captain doesn’t give a damn about jurisdiction when there are lives on the line.

The Angry Ranger Captain doesn’t have room for screw-ups in the Fellowship.

The Angry Ranger Captain took you off the Moria case.

The Angry Ranger Captain hates to do this, but it’s for your own good.


Try it and see!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Let’s get back to the original question, “Should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest?”

The answer seems clear: yes. Yes, he should have.

Rather than Gandalf, perhaps Aragorn should've been more concerned with Trolls. I believe Trolls are more of an issue. Excuse me, I mean Trolls were more of an issue.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Rather than Gandalf, perhaps Aragorn should've been more concerned with Trolls. I believe Trolls are more of an issue. Excuse me, I mean Trolls were more of an issue.

Trolls may still be an issue.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Let’s get back to the original question, “Should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest?”

The answer seems clear: yes. Yes, he should have. For then, instead of further tedious footslogging, we could have had an awesome fantasy cop show, featuring Aragorn as the Middle-earth equivalent of the angry police captain!
(Site generates phrases typifying the stock character, e.g., “The Angry Police Captain just threw his mug at you”, “The Angry Police Captain thinks your partner is getting too close on this one”, “The Angry Police Captain takes it black with three sugars”.)

Much of this is easily adapted. Thus:

The Angry Ranger Captain doesn’t give a damn about jurisdiction when there are lives on the line.

The Angry Ranger Captain doesn’t have room for screw-ups in the Fellowship.

The Angry Ranger Captain took you off the Moria case.

The Angry Ranger Captain hates to do this, but it’s for your own good.


Try it and see!

As I think I explained earlier, arrest does not have to mean using handcuffs and sending Gandalf to a cell. Arrest of the situation whereby Aragorn takes command of the Company and the quest, and Gandalf is sidelined, is an example of how it may have panned out.

Most of what you have written in your last post is not relevant to this thread. All that experience, 5k plus posts and all.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Arrest of the situation whereby Aragorn takes command of the Company and the quest, and Gandalf is sidelined, is an example of how it may have panned out.

Aragorn was already leading the Company. He told Gandalf that he almost lead them to their doom when they were considering Moria.

[Inziladun]

It's always sad to see a situation end this way. At the end of the day they're only books, and there's enough strife in the world without people getting up in arms over fiction. Ah, well.

Anyway, it seems obvious that neither Aragorn nor any other member of the Fellowship had the desire to stop following Gandalf, no matter the misgivings about their situation. He was the de facto leader from the start, and that too was never in question.

[Smug the Fabulous]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Let’s get back to the original question, “Should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest?”

The answer seems clear: yes. Yes, he should have. For then, instead of further tedious footslogging, we could have had an awesome fantasy cop show, featuring Aragorn as the Middle-earth equivalent of the angry police captain!

I've been thinking more along the lines of CSI: Arda, with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas going around solving crimes every week.

LEGOLAS: Well, we stopped that crazy wizard from leading us into the mines of Moria.

GIMLI: Good thing you had the foresight to arrest Gandalf while you did, Aragorn.

ARAGORN: I don't like to brag but you could say on the matter of not entering Khazad-dûm, we nearly walked into our...dûm.

(Puts on sunglasses)

YEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!

LEGOLAS: ...what?

ARAGORN: What?

GIMLI: Is that the best pun you could come up with?

ARAGORN: Well, you know...the words doom and Khazad-dûm and...I thought-

GIMLI: Go have a lie down, Aragorn.

ARAGORN: Er, well...yeah, okay.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Smug the Fabulous

I've been thinking more along the lines of CSI: Arda, with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas going around solving crimes every week.

LEGOLAS: Well, we stopped that crazy wizard from leading us into the mines of Moria.

GIMLI: Good thing you had the foresight to arrest Gandalf while you did, Aragorn.

ARAGORN: I don't like to brag but you could say on the matter of not entering Khazad-dûm, we nearly walked into our...dûm.

(Puts on sunglasses)

YEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!

LEGOLAS: ...what?

ARAGORN: What?

GIMLI: Is that the best pun you could come up with?

ARAGORN: Well, you know...the words doom and Khazad-dûm and...I thought-

GIMLI: Go have a lie down, Aragorn.

ARAGORN: Er, well...yeah, okay.

This is getting silly and immature. Not long before the mods delete this. It is not what responsible posters do. Certainly not Ivy League or Russell Group material.

[The Barrow-Wight]

Come on people. Let's get back on track or I'm just going to shut the thread down.