Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Belegorn]

I'd like to know where Aragorn forecasted Gandalf's "imminent doom". I know Aragorn mentioned his misgivings to Gandalf about going into Moria, but where is the passage of Aragorn saying, "If you go into Moria Gandalf, you will die."

Originally Posted by FotR; A Journey in the Dark

I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!

Foresight is of two kinds according to Tolkien. The one involves pre-vision, such as the gods who were allowed to see parts of the future by Eru. Then there is forecasting about a future not seen, "the deduction of the wise" by which "any mind, whether of the Valar or the Incarnate, may deduce by reason what will or may come to pass" [Osanwe-kenta, note 6].

I do not think Saruman's staff breaking was symbolic of his powers being lost. When Gandalf's staff broke he was still using his powers to fight the Balrog.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'd like to know where Aragorn forecasted Gandalf's "imminent doom". I know Aragorn mentioned his misgivings to Gandalf about going into Moria, but where is the passage of Aragorn saying, "If you go into Moria Gandalf, you will die."



Foresight is of two kinds according to Tolkien. The one involves pre-vision, such as the gods who were allowed to see parts of the future by Eru. Then there is forecasting about a future not seen, "the deduction of the wise" by which "any mind, whether of the Valar or the Incarnate, may deduce by reason what will or may come to pass" [Osanwe-kenta, note 6].

I do not think Saruman's staff breaking was symbolic of his powers being lost. When Gandalf's staff broke he was still using his powers to fight the Balrog.

Aragorn also says,''Farewell, Gandalf! Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true! What hope have we without you?''

The Balrog did not break Gandalf's staff through supernatural power in the way Gandalf the White did for Saruman's staff. Of course a staff may fall and crack open if it is just made of oak. But neverthless it does symbolise the loss of power if broken through show of power, sending the bearer reeling.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I do not think Saruman's staff breaking was symbolic of his powers being lost. When Gandalf's staff broke he was still using his powers to fight the Balrog.

I actually do think there's a difference between the two; I interpret the breaking of Gandalf's staff as being less symbolic than Saruman's, because the breaking of Saruman's staff was, specifically, a punative action taken by Gandalf against the rebel Istar. I think Gandalf's increased authority, especially considering his statement that he was "Saruman as he should have been," was given him by Eru in part specifically to address Saruman's rebellion and betrayal. Gandalf took precedence over and above Saruman, gave him the chance to repent, and then punished him and voided his power and authority.

Now, I don't believe the Istari's magical power came from their staves, but I do believe that (if you'll pardon the reference), as the wands in Harry Potter, the staves facilitated the exercise of their native power which, if you'll remember, had been restricted by their embodiment as material, biological beings, as well as by statute of the Valar. I think Saruman's power was lessened by the breaking of his staff, but that Gandalf's authority may have extended even so far as to actually limit Saruman's power further, as punishment for his crimes and to prevent him from using his considerable power to further damage the Free Peoples.

Keep in mind, this is just my personal interpretation.

The loss of Gandalf's staff, on the other hand, was as the result of no punative action, specifically meant to restrict or lessen his status, but likely as a result of Gandalf exercising such a great amount of power against his foe. It may very well have lessened his ability to use "magic," but I don't think it had the same effect as the loss of Saruman's staff had on him.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

I actually do think there's a difference between the two; I interpret the breaking of Gandalf's staff as being less symbolic than Saruman's, because the breaking of Saruman's staff was, specifically, a punative action taken by Gandalf against the rebel Istar. I think Gandalf's increased authority, especially considering his statement that he was "Saruman as he should have been," was given him by Eru in part specifically to address Saruman's rebellion and betrayal. Gandalf took precedence over and above Saruman, gave him the chance to repent, and then punished him and voided his power and authority.

Now, I don't believe the Istari's magical power came from their staves, but I do believe that (if you'll pardon the reference), as the wands in Harry Potter, the staves facilitated the exercise of their native power which, if you'll remember, had been restricted by their embodiment as material, biological beings, as well as by statute of the Valar. I think Saruman's power was lessened by the breaking of his staff, but that Gandalf's authority may have extended even so far as to actually limit Saruman's power further, as punishment for his crimes and to prevent him from using his considerable power to further damage the Free Peoples.

Keep in mind, this is just my personal interpretation.

The loss of Gandalf's staff, on the other hand, was as the result of no punative action, specifically meant to restrict or lessen his status, but likely as a result of Gandalf exercising such a great amount of power against his foe. It may very well have lessened his ability to use "magic," but I don't think it had the same effect as the loss of Saruman's staff had on him.

Well said, yet we need to stay with the thread question as much as possible.