What if Gollum had lived?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Once the One Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Mount Doom, if we imagine that Gollum did somehow survive and was brought to safety (either by himself or though the help of the eagles), to what fate would Gandalf have sentenced Gollum to?

By "somehow survive" do you mean didn't fall into the Fire? Because as soon as the Ring was unmade he would have in all likelihood almost immediately died of extreme old age, regardless of what anyone else might have thought a suitable sentence for him. He had, after all, lived a little over five times a Hobbit's natural lifespan and the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive.

"Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

By "somehow survive" do you mean didn't fall into the Fire? Because as soon as the Ring was unmade he would have in all likelihood almost immediately died of extreme old age, regardless of what anyone else might have thought a suitable sentence for him. He had, after all, lived a little over five times a Hobbit's natural lifespan and the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive.

I don't know that Gollum would have died instantly following the Ring's destruction, but he probably wouldn't have lived very long. One can see the quick change in Bilbo from the time Frodo last saw him in Rivendell to the return from the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen, and multiply that many times.

[Moonraker]

Did Gandalf or anyone else have a duty of care to Gollum in the event he did survive? He did commit some serious crimes, such as murdering Deagol, and biting off the finger of Frodo, as well as the attempted murder of Frodo and Sam. But the influence of the Ring was obviously what Gandalf would have thought was the reason Gollum behaved as he did, and was therefore not guilty on grounds of diminished responsibility. Maybe a short retirement in the woodland realm under the care of the Wood Elves would be more realistic that getting Bed & Breakfast at Bag End.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Did Gandalf or anyone else have a duty of care to Gollum in the event he did survive? He did commit some serious crimes, such as murdering Deagol, and biting off the finger of Frodo, as well as the attempted murder of Frodo and Sam. But the influence of the Ring was obviously what Gandalf would have thought was the reason Gollum behaved as he did, and was therefore not guilty on grounds of diminished responsibility. Maybe a short retirement in the woodland realm under the care of the Wood Elves would be more realistic that getting Bed & Breakfast at Bag End.

The fact that the Ring was a heavy influence on Gollum's deeds was a factor in meriting forgiveness from Frodo and Sam, but it did not entitle him to retirement care. It should be remembered that Gollum's mean and malicious nature allowed the Ring to more easily affect him to such a degree.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The fact that the Ring was a heavy influence on Gollum's deeds was a factor in meriting forgiveness from Frodo and Sam, but it did not entitle him to retirement care. It should be remembered that Gollum's mean and malicious nature allowed the Ring to more easily affect him to such a degree.

Gandalf certainly could not have allowed Gollum to walk freely in Middle Earth on the premise that he was a deranged, twisted and tormented murderer. He would have had to come under the care of some folk until he died. I was hoping the end of the Ring would have broken the evil spell bestalled on Gollum, so that he may begin to recover. But old age would soon cripple him to death even still.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And yet but for Sam's clumsiness and protectiveness towards Frodo Gollum might have repented.

Letters #96

...For myself, I was prob. most moved by Sam's disquisition on the seamless web of story,
and by the scene when Frodo goes to sleep on his breast, and the tragedy of Gollum who at that moment
came within a hair of repentence-but for one rough word from Sam.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And yet but for Sam's clumsiness and protectiveness towards Frodo Gollum might have repented.

Letters #96

Repented for how long? Surely the realisation that Frodo was on a quest to destroy the Ring would have stirred up the evil in Gollum again?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Repented for how long? Surely the realisation that Frodo was on a quest to destroy the Ring would have stirred up the evil in Gollum again?

Tolkien wrote, I think in that same letter cited by Tuor, that ultimately the Ring would have been too strong for Gollum, and the repentance would not have been permanent.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The fact that the Ring was a heavy influence on Gollum's deeds was a factor in meriting forgiveness from Frodo and Sam, but it did not entitle him to retirement care. It should be remembered that Gollum's mean and malicious nature allowed the Ring to more easily affect him to such a degree.

Seconded.

It's been explained many times that the Ring enhances what is already there enroute to corruption. He was a rodentile muck-snipe who (...ahem...) commited murder the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Seconded.

It's been explained many times that the Ring enhances what is already there enroute to corruption. He was a rodentile muck-snipe who (...ahem...) commited murder the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

Would the folks over the Great Sea not be curious to sea the creature behind all the tales that Frodo would have told them once the Company arrived on shore of the far green country, the Undying Lands?.

As for Gollum surviving, I could envisage a scene whereby he sees Frodo cast the Ring into the fire, shrieks out loud, and then faints. Sam and Frodo between them carry Gollum outside, then the Eagles come and take the three of them away. Gollum finally revives himself, now feeling terribly old and venerable, and no longer capable of being a physical danger to his captors. I can also conceive Gollum passing out permanently as he sees the Ring gone forever, maybe a stroke or heart attack due to the sheer shock and anger at losing what mean't so incredibly much to him. Certainly in old age this end would have been plausible, much like when a Pope died of shock in Rome after being informed that Jerusalem was lost by the Catholic soldiers to the Islamic Empire during the Crusades.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

Since when were any of the people you mention a "friend" of Gollum, least of all Aragorn?

'[Gollum] will never love me, I fear; for he bit me, and I was not gentle.

FOTR The Council of Elrond

So spoke Aragorn.

And Gollum wasn't anyone's responsibility. Yes, I think Frodo might have offered Gollum some help, if anyone did. But he would have been the only one, and it wouldn't have been out of any sort of obligation.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Would the folks over the Great Sea not be curious to sea the creature behind all the tales that Frodo would have told them once the Company arrived on shore of the far green country, the Undying Lands?.

No, no more than they would have wished to see Wormtongue, or the Witch-king. You couldn't just stick anyone on those boats. Bilbo and Frodo were very special cases.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

As for Gollum surviving, I could envisage a scene whereby he sees Frodo cast the Ring into the fire, shrieks out loud, and then faints. Sam and Frodo between them carry Gollum outside, then the Eagles come and take the three of them away. Gollum finally revives himself, now feeling terribly old and venerable, and no longer capable of being a physical danger to his captors. I can also conceive Gollum passing out permanently as he sees the Ring gone forever, maybe a stroke or heart attack due to the sheer shock and anger at losing what mean't so incredibly much to him. Certainly in old age this end would have been plausible, much like when a Pope died of shock in Rome after being informed that Jerusalem was lost by the Catholic soldiers to the Islamic Empire during the Crusades.

I personally think that if Gollum had witnessed Frodo throwing the Ring into the Fire, he would immediately have leaped in after it. Without it, he would have had no will to live.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

This isn't anything related to my reply to Inziladun, however. What Gandalf would have done with him is a separate question, entirely, and doesn't change the fact that Smeagol was a rodentile muck-snipe who killed his own kin the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Zig�0‹4r

By "somehow survive" do you mean didn't fall into the Fire? Because as soon as the Ring was unmade he would have in all likelihood almost immediately died of extreme old age, regardless of what anyone else might have thought a suitable sentence for him. He had, after all, lived a little over five times a Hobbit's natural lifespan and the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive.

"Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust."

If Gollum hadn't fallen into the Fire what was the other way to destroy the Ring? Probably Frodo would have jumped himself and that'd have saved the day. And only then Gollum could be saved. I also feel Gollum was too fragile to be sentenced and neither of the good people, especially Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel would have wanted to punish him. They'd probably focus on his healing rather than punishing him.