Why Sauron wants the Ring?

[denethorthefirst]

I wrote that the Dwarves of DURIN at least definitely fought on the good side. That is supported by Tolkien.

Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Page 229, about the War of the Elves and Sauron:

In black anger he (Sauron) turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbors body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Saurons host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-Dum, and with them came Elves of Lorinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards ... and (Sauron) turned upon the Dwarves ... whom he drove back; but the gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Saurons hate, and all the Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.

This is a bit contradictory; by "harry Dwarves" Tolkien probably meant "Dwarves of Durins Folk" because Sauron gave away rings to the other clans afterwards so at least tried to subdue them "diplomatically" at first. Of course that failed, and the hatred he felt for Durins Folk must have been extended to all the other Dwarves as well.
We know that by the End of the third Age he had recaptured 3 of the 7 Rings (probably through war): so its only logical to assume that at least by the time of the Third Age the relationship between Sauron and the rest of the Clans was as broken as that between Sauron and Durins Folk. The fact that the Dwarves of ALL seven Houses fought a massive war of annihilation against the Orcs of the Misty Mountains from III 2793-2999 is further proof that at least by the time of the late Third Age Sauron had absolutely no control over the Dwarves.
Because of the close relationship between Eregion and Khazad-Dum the Dwarves of Moria also probably knew of the danger of their Ring and (just like the Elves) never wore it during the Second Age while Sauron had the One (so even IF the Dwarves of Moria could somehow be dominated through their ring, Sauron would not have been able to achieve that because they refused to wear it). And maybe they passed their knowledge on to the other Houses (i think thats rather likely).

The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power, Page 266:

The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of wich evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.

So Sauron failed to directly dominate the Dwarves, he only profited indirectly. Maybe this wrath lead to infighting, or it was this greed that pushed the dwarves to dig ever deeper for mithril (and awaken/release the balrog) and maybe this greed also lead to the massive wealth of erebor that eventually attracted smaug.
But while the Dwarven Rings indirectly lead to evil, the Dwarves certainly did not bow to Sauron and become his servants, they are just too stubborn and proud.

Page 271, about the Battle of Dagorlad:

Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.

Again: Even IF (big if) Sauron dominated the eastern Houses of the Dwarves during the second Age, how come so few were willing to fight for him? I guess those few were either mercenaries or small detachments sent for political/diplomatic reasons. The Dwarves cant always take the moral high road of the Elves because they are not immortal and dont have a valinorean "safety ticket" that would allow them to fall back on the Valar, they have to live, stay and die in Middle-earth and are forced to compromise.

Im sure there more quotes to be found, but i think thats enough for now.

[denethorthefirst]

Originally Posted by jallanite

The Orcs whom Sam contacts telepathically and the Orc who is frightened by Sam are not themselves bearers of other Rings of Power. That the One Ring has a vague ability to somehow enhance Sauron’s ability to dominate other wills, is just vague. It does not work on Gollum who even till the end is opposed to Sauron’s will, though terrified by the thought of him. It does not work on Frodo who wishes rather to set himself up as a new Dark Lord opposed to Sauron.

I dont quite understand what youre trying to say ...
Both Sam and Frodo could, according to their own power, more easily dominate/impress other (weaker) wills when they wore the One Ring. It seemed to be an essential Function of the One Ring. Tolkien even states in some Letter (i dont have the exact quote) that it was the One Ring that allowed Sauron to dominate and seduce the Numenoreans during his stay on the island.
This easier "Domination" of Persons that dont wear another Ring of Power and the Control of the other Rings are the ONLY directly mentioned powers of the Ring - thats why i called it the "narrow" (based on textual evidence, not speculation) definition of the powers of the One Ring. All the other effects that mortal users like Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experience (prolonging of life, invisibility) are accidental side-effects that Sauron would not need, as an Ainu he is immortal and already partly in the unseen.
Gollums addiction to the One Ring seemed to have been stronger than his fear of Sauron (when Sauron was far away! I dont think Gollum "opposed" Saurons Will when they were in the same room during their little torture session! But Sauron is not the Ringbearer, Frodo is); and if Frodo concentrated enough, i think he would have been able to dominate Gollums will fairly quickly.

[denethorthefirst]

Back to topic: why Sauron wants the Ring?
Simple reason that applies in both cases: he wants it back, because its his! The ring is a part of him, thats reason enough for wanting it back!

If definition 1 is correct:
he wants to recapture the Ring simply to deny any possible contender access to it. Recapture of the Ring would also speed up the conquest of Middle-earth by a few months or years because the works of the three elven rings would be "laid bare" (but given the fact that Sauron is hundreds of thousands of years old, i dont think that a few years here or there matter that much to him).
But Sauron doesnt seem to "need" the Ring that much, he can conquer Middle-earth without it.

If definition 2 is correct:
he wants to regain the Ring because it would make him much more powerful; he really has to gain something by recapturing it.

[Findegil]

But even follwoing the narrow definition Sauron has a good reason to get the One Ring back: not allowing anybudy else to use it against him. Sauron himself held at the end of the Thrid Age 12 Rings of Power: the Nine and 3 of the Seven. Some one trained enough in controlling the power of others and from his natural abbilty powerful enough using the One Ring might have been able to enslave Sauron himself rather quickly with some many Ring-connections to work with. Even if Sauron would have been able to protect himself in the same way as the Elven.Smith of Eregion did, he would have lost his controll over the Nazgûl and probably many of his Orks, as is seen by the one Ork frigthen away even by Sam using the Ring without any real controll.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[denethorthefirst]

Of course, Sauron wants the Ring back no matter what (even if only for Safety Reasons).
IF anybody mastered it, the effect on Sauron would be the same as if it was destroyed: he would become disconnected from his power in the Ring and be reduced to a powerless spirit. But that may have been only a hypothetical threat and if anybody could really master the Ring and supplant Sauron is another Question. Tolkien himself wrote in a Letter that only Gandalf might be expected to master it, but if he really could is debatable (i think not). There is also a difference between wielding and mastering: a sufficiently powerful Ainu (for example Saruman) or Elda (for example Galadriel) might be capable of wielding the Ring and use it to dominate others, raise Armies etc. but they could not master it and would certainly lose in the final confrontation against Sauron.

[jallanite]

denethorthefirst is quite right about at least some of the Dwarves participating in the War of the Last Alliance against Sauron. I had forgotten the mentions in Unfinished Tales. *My shame*

But I still disagree with denethorthefirst’s narrow definition:

The only function of the One Ring was to dominate (the bearers of) the other Rings of Power and to somehow enhance Saurons ability to dominate other wills.

My listing of various powers and abilities shown by the One Ring was to indicate that the One Rings shows powers not covered by this “narrow definition”.

I do not see that Sam’s listening in on the Orcs telepathically enables either Sam or Sauron to dominate the wills of those Orcs. The Orcs are not even bearers of other Rings of Power.

Throughout The Lord of the Rings we see several characters tempted to control the Ring, but no-one tempted by an increased desire to submit himself or herself to Sauron’s will. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Galadriel, Boromir, Saruman, and even Sam, are tempted to take the Ring for themselves, to use against Sauron, which is surely not Sauron’s will. (Unless you wish to suggest that Sauron is transmitting a suggestion to the bearer of the One Ring to reveal himself [or herself] as a trick, as Sauron expected to quickly overcome whoever now had the Ring, once that was revealed. That would be possible in some cases, but not in most.)

Nor is their even a hint, I believe, that Sauron was using his will through the One Ring especially to defeat either Elendil or Isildur in the War of the Last Alliance. Isildur is in the end overcome by his desire for the One Ring itself, when Isildur first names it his “precious”.

The Ring gave Sauron, from its forging, more power, but Tolkien is vague on what powers it gave him. This vagueness veils the effectiveness of any discussion of this matter. Your attempt to distinguish between wielding the Ring and mastering the Ring is an example of this. You do not know, no more than I, whether the One Ring was used to raise Sauron’s armies in the Second Age any more that it was in the Third, so far as we are told.

It does seem that Sauron was on the verge of defeating Gondor and perhaps two of the Elven lands without the One Ring, except for such powers as served as an “anchor” to bring him back to life and at least to most of his former power. But how much Sauron’s power at the end of the Third Age was due to his former possession of the Ring we are not told. It may be that the possession of twelve of the Lesser Rings was quite a lot in its own right.

Note some readers find it odd that the One Ring is not even mentioned in the accounts of the Fall of Númenor save when the spirit of Sauron takes up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr after the drowning of Númenor. Had the One Ring not been with Sauron at all during his captivity in Númenor but hidden in Barad-dûr? Well, at least in Letter 211 of Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Tolkien wrote:

Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.

So this tells us that in this time and place Tolkien imagines that Sauron, without the One Ring, would have little special power to persuade, as perhaps we should imagine him at the end of the Third Age. Yet Sauron has somehow persuaded hoards of Easterlings and Southrons to join him. Presumably we are to imagine that much of the power that he had put into the One Ring had returned to him.

[denethorthefirst]

denethorthefirst is quite right about at least some of the Dwarves participating in the War of the Last Alliance against Sauron. I had forgotten the mentions in Unfinished Tales. *My shame*

But I still disagree with denethorthefirst’s narrow definition:
The only function of the One Ring was to dominate (the bearers of) the other Rings of Power and to somehow enhance Saurons ability to dominate other wills.
My listing of various powers and abilities shown by the One Ring was to indicate that the One Rings shows powers not covered by this “narrow definition”.

I do not see that Sam’s listening in on the Orcs telepathically enables either Sam or Sauron to dominate the wills of those Orcs. The Orcs are not even bearers of other Rings of Power.

Throughout The Lord of the Rings we see several characters tempted to control the Ring, but no-one tempted by an increased desire to submit himself or herself to Sauron’s will. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Galadriel, Boromir, Saruman, and even Sam, are tempted to take the Ring for themselves, to use against Sauron, which is surely not Sauron’s will. (Unless you wish to suggest that Sauron is transmitting a suggestion to the bearer of the One Ring to reveal himself [or herself] as a trick, as Sauron expected to quickly overcome whoever now had the Ring, once that was revealed. That would be possible in some cases, but not in most.)

Nor is their even a hint, I believe, that Sauron was using his will through the One Ring especially to defeat either Elendil or Isildur in the War of the Last Alliance. Isildur is in the end overcome by his desire for the One Ring itself, when Isildur first names it his “precious”.

You seem to be misunderstanding or misreading what i wrote!

I already explained it:
The "narrow" definition states that the only (intended by Sauron when he forged it) powers of the one Ring are:
1. It allowed the bearer (Sauron at the time) to directly dominate the other Rings of Power (and their bearers) and
2. it also enhanced the bearers (Sauron at the time) ability to "intrude"/"read" (osanwe) and dominate other (non-ringbearer) wills (i.e. made it easier for him to break the barriers of unwill of persons that weren't wearing other rings of powers).
I dont like this definition (I favor the "broad" view of the Rings Powers), but it is completely supported by Tolkien!
These two functions of the One Ring are the ONLY directly mentioned powers of it (and all the powers you listed are covered by this "narrow" definition!)!

But: Sauron could only perform those two functions of the One Ring when he was in possession/control of it! (I think thats quite obvious! Thats why he wasn't able to dominate the other Rings of Power in the Third Age and the Elves were free to use their Three Rings in safety) He cant work through or control the One Ring from a distance, but he is still "connected" to his power within it and he is not "diminished" because of the loss of the One Ring (Letter 131).
Sauron is clearly not almighty: there are of course a lot of people in Middle-earth that are completely independent from him. For a lot of those the One Ring is tempting: it fills the mind of others with delusions of grandeur (Boromir, Galadriel, even Sam!). But i think that was an unintended side-effect of the One Ring: the Power that Sauron put in the Ring was so great that it had a "seducing" effect on lesser beings. I dont think thats something Sauron intended: he probably never thought he would lose it!

I NEVER wrote that the second function of the One Ring (the ability to more easily read/dominate other minds) worked only with other ring-bearers!
Sam, even though he is not trained, is able, when he is wearing the One Ring (and according to his own innate power), to "intrude"/"read" the mind of weaker wills (the orcs).
Tolkien also wrote in a letter that it was the One Ring that helped Sauron to easier dominate and manipulate the Numenoreans (almost an entire people!).
Other people besides Sauron could use the Ring, according to their own innate Power, even if they are not able to completely master it. For example: while Sam is able to access a tiny part of the Rings Power with respect to the lesser Orcs, he couldn't dominate the Three Ringbearers (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond) and he would surely fail if he tried, with the help of the One Ring, to break the barriers of unwill of a more powerful non-ringbearer (like for example Denethor II).

Nor is their even a hint, I believe, that Sauron was using his will through the One Ring especially to defeat either Elendil or Isildur in the War of the Last Alliance. Isildur is in the end overcome by his desire for the One Ring itself, when Isildur first names it his “precious”.

Of course Sauron used the One Ring in the War of the last Alliance, but Gil-Galad, Isildur, and especially Elendil were exceptional beings that had a lot of willpower and they resisted his efforts - i never wrote that the One Ring was somehow almighty. It allowed Sauron to better break the barriers of unwill and dominate/intrude other minds, but even while he was successfully doing that during his stay in Numenor, at least some (the Faithful) were resisting him!
We also have to take into account that the actual direct contact Elendil, Isildur and Gil-Galad had with Sauron was limited - and they resisted him successfully during that limited time! They might not have been able to resist his willpower for a prolonged period of time if, for example, Sauron had captured and (mentally) tortured them.

Note some readers find it odd that the One Ring is not even mentioned in the accounts of the Fall of Númenor save when the spirit of Sauron takes up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr after the drowning of Númenor. Had the One Ring not been with Sauron at all during his captivity in Númenor but hidden in Barad-dûr? Well, at least in Letter 211 of Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Tolkien wrote:
Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.
So this tells us that in this time and place Tolkien imagines that Sauron, without the One Ring, would have little special power to persuade, as perhaps we should imagine him at the end of the Third Age. Yet Sauron has somehow persuaded hoards of Easterlings and Southrons to join him. Presumably we are to imagine that much of the power that he had put into the One Ring had returned to him.

Of course Sauron had the One Ring with him in Numenor (Tolkien himself says so), it was a part of him and he would never separate willingly from it.
You're wondering why Sauron is able, without the One Ring, to command Easterlings and Southrons. Sauron was simply manipulating them (like any sly politician would). We have to remember that those people are on a rather primitive cultural level; i think it was relatively easy for Sauron to manipulate them into thinking that he was some kind of God. He also laid the Groundwork and Foundation of his Third Age Rule in the Second Age (when he had the Ring).
But the notion that Sauron somehow transferred (or "got back") large parts of his power from the One Ring during the Third Age (even though he wasnt in posession???) is completely "un-tolkien" and not supported by the text!

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Throughout The Lord of the Rings we see several characters tempted to control the Ring, but no-one tempted by an increased desire to submit himself or herself to Sauron’s will.

It does look to me like there's an (as far as I know) isolated hint of this on Amon Hen: "[Frodo] heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell."