Why Sauron wants the Ring?

[denethorthefirst]

Hello Jallanite,

thanks for the compliments

Both definitions are a bit extreme, maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

"Tolkien also implies that Sam’s telepathic connection to the nearby Orcs is through the power of the Ring which Sam is wearing. When Sam encountered an Orc in the Tower of Cirith Ungol and grabbed the Ring, Sam appeared to the Orc as a powerful warrior cloaked in shadow holding “some nameless menace of power and doom.” When Gollum first attacks Frodo on Mount Doom, Sam sees Frodo as a vision of “a figure robed in white… [and] it held a wheel of fire.” ... In short the tale and Tolkien’s comments on it show various powers ascribed to the One Ring beyond the compass of your narrow definition."

These two examples are both covered by the narrow definition (enhancement of the ability to dominate other wills.).

Of course Sauron could theoretically dominate the three elven Rings, but he could not do so in practice because the Elves denied him the possibility; so he essentially only dominated the Nine, thats what i meant.

Tolkien clearly states that the Dwarves could not be dominated and that the rings did not work as intended; so i dont know how you come to the conclusion that the Seven Kings were somehow "puppets" during the Second Age? Quite the opposite was the case, the Dwarves fought Sauron and were still counted among the Free People.
And while its true that some Dwarves fought on Saurons side during the War of the Last Alliance, i dont think they fought "under" him (like the Orcs and Men) but more "alongside" him for political reasons maybe, or Sauron bought some dwarves as mercenaries (i dont think they gave up their religion, worship of Mahal the Maker, and accepted Sauron as God-King). The Dwarves of Durin (and maybe other western Clans as well) definitely fought on the Side of the Elves and the Dunedain. So the seven Dwarf Kings were definitely not at Saurons "beck and call"! In fact Sauron did all he could to regain the Seven Rings because they did not work on the Dwarves and he could not dominate them (he only recaptured three of them by the end of the Third Age).

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

And while its true that some Dwarves fought on Saurons side during the War of the Last Alliance, i dont think they fought "under" him (like the Orcs and Men) but more "alongside" him for political reasons maybe, or Sauron bought some dwarves as mercenaries (i dont think they gave up their religion, worship of Mahal the Maker, and accepted Sauron as God-King). The Dwarves of Durin (and maybe other western Clans as well) definitely fought on the Side of the Elves and the Dunedain. So the seven Dwarf Kings were definitely not at Saurons "beck and call"! In fact Sauron did all he could to regain the Seven Rings because they did not work on the Dwarves and he could not dominate them (he only recaptured three of them by the end of the Third Age).

I don’t recall so much as a mention of the Dwarves during what Tolkien writes of Sauron’s early wars.

I find, perhaps wrongly, your statement that the Dwarves “definitely fought on the Side of the Elves and the Dunedain” not to be supported by what Tolkien has written either about the war with Númenor or in the war of the Last Alliance. Provide a source for definitely.

My point in bringing in various other mentions by Tolkien of powers and attributes of the One Ring and the other Rings is that Tolkien does not restrict the One Ring only to your narrow definition:

The only function of the One Ring was to dominate (the bearers of) the other Rings of Power and to somehow enhance Saurons ability to dominate other wills.

The Orcs whom Sam contacts telepathically and the Orc who is frightened by Sam are not themselves bearers of other Rings of Power. That the One Ring has a vague ability to somehow enhance Sauron’s ability to dominate other wills, is just vague. It does not work on Gollum who even till the end is opposed to Sauron’s will, though terrified by the thought of him. It does not work on Frodo who wishes rather to set himself up as a new Dark Lord opposed to Sauron.

[denethorthefirst]

I wrote that the Dwarves of DURIN at least definitely fought on the good side. That is supported by Tolkien.

Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Page 229, about the War of the Elves and Sauron:

In black anger he (Sauron) turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbors body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Saurons host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-Dum, and with them came Elves of Lorinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards ... and (Sauron) turned upon the Dwarves ... whom he drove back; but the gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Saurons hate, and all the Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.

This is a bit contradictory; by "harry Dwarves" Tolkien probably meant "Dwarves of Durins Folk" because Sauron gave away rings to the other clans afterwards so at least tried to subdue them "diplomatically" at first. Of course that failed, and the hatred he felt for Durins Folk must have been extended to all the other Dwarves as well.
We know that by the End of the third Age he had recaptured 3 of the 7 Rings (probably through war): so its only logical to assume that at least by the time of the Third Age the relationship between Sauron and the rest of the Clans was as broken as that between Sauron and Durins Folk. The fact that the Dwarves of ALL seven Houses fought a massive war of annihilation against the Orcs of the Misty Mountains from III 2793-2999 is further proof that at least by the time of the late Third Age Sauron had absolutely no control over the Dwarves.
Because of the close relationship between Eregion and Khazad-Dum the Dwarves of Moria also probably knew of the danger of their Ring and (just like the Elves) never wore it during the Second Age while Sauron had the One (so even IF the Dwarves of Moria could somehow be dominated through their ring, Sauron would not have been able to achieve that because they refused to wear it). And maybe they passed their knowledge on to the other Houses (i think thats rather likely).

The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power, Page 266:

The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of wich evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.

So Sauron failed to directly dominate the Dwarves, he only profited indirectly. Maybe this wrath lead to infighting, or it was this greed that pushed the dwarves to dig ever deeper for mithril (and awaken/release the balrog) and maybe this greed also lead to the massive wealth of erebor that eventually attracted smaug.
But while the Dwarven Rings indirectly lead to evil, the Dwarves certainly did not bow to Sauron and become his servants, they are just too stubborn and proud.

Page 271, about the Battle of Dagorlad:

Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.

Again: Even IF (big if) Sauron dominated the eastern Houses of the Dwarves during the second Age, how come so few were willing to fight for him? I guess those few were either mercenaries or small detachments sent for political/diplomatic reasons. The Dwarves cant always take the moral high road of the Elves because they are not immortal and dont have a valinorean "safety ticket" that would allow them to fall back on the Valar, they have to live, stay and die in Middle-earth and are forced to compromise.

Im sure there more quotes to be found, but i think thats enough for now.

[denethorthefirst]

Originally Posted by jallanite

The Orcs whom Sam contacts telepathically and the Orc who is frightened by Sam are not themselves bearers of other Rings of Power. That the One Ring has a vague ability to somehow enhance Sauron’s ability to dominate other wills, is just vague. It does not work on Gollum who even till the end is opposed to Sauron’s will, though terrified by the thought of him. It does not work on Frodo who wishes rather to set himself up as a new Dark Lord opposed to Sauron.

I dont quite understand what youre trying to say ...
Both Sam and Frodo could, according to their own power, more easily dominate/impress other (weaker) wills when they wore the One Ring. It seemed to be an essential Function of the One Ring. Tolkien even states in some Letter (i dont have the exact quote) that it was the One Ring that allowed Sauron to dominate and seduce the Numenoreans during his stay on the island.
This easier "Domination" of Persons that dont wear another Ring of Power and the Control of the other Rings are the ONLY directly mentioned powers of the Ring - thats why i called it the "narrow" (based on textual evidence, not speculation) definition of the powers of the One Ring. All the other effects that mortal users like Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experience (prolonging of life, invisibility) are accidental side-effects that Sauron would not need, as an Ainu he is immortal and already partly in the unseen.
Gollums addiction to the One Ring seemed to have been stronger than his fear of Sauron (when Sauron was far away! I dont think Gollum "opposed" Saurons Will when they were in the same room during their little torture session! But Sauron is not the Ringbearer, Frodo is); and if Frodo concentrated enough, i think he would have been able to dominate Gollums will fairly quickly.

[denethorthefirst]

Back to topic: why Sauron wants the Ring?
Simple reason that applies in both cases: he wants it back, because its his! The ring is a part of him, thats reason enough for wanting it back!

If definition 1 is correct:
he wants to recapture the Ring simply to deny any possible contender access to it. Recapture of the Ring would also speed up the conquest of Middle-earth by a few months or years because the works of the three elven rings would be "laid bare" (but given the fact that Sauron is hundreds of thousands of years old, i dont think that a few years here or there matter that much to him).
But Sauron doesnt seem to "need" the Ring that much, he can conquer Middle-earth without it.

If definition 2 is correct:
he wants to regain the Ring because it would make him much more powerful; he really has to gain something by recapturing it.

[Findegil]

But even follwoing the narrow definition Sauron has a good reason to get the One Ring back: not allowing anybudy else to use it against him. Sauron himself held at the end of the Thrid Age 12 Rings of Power: the Nine and 3 of the Seven. Some one trained enough in controlling the power of others and from his natural abbilty powerful enough using the One Ring might have been able to enslave Sauron himself rather quickly with some many Ring-connections to work with. Even if Sauron would have been able to protect himself in the same way as the Elven.Smith of Eregion did, he would have lost his controll over the Nazgûl and probably many of his Orks, as is seen by the one Ork frigthen away even by Sam using the Ring without any real controll.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[denethorthefirst]

Of course, Sauron wants the Ring back no matter what (even if only for Safety Reasons).
IF anybody mastered it, the effect on Sauron would be the same as if it was destroyed: he would become disconnected from his power in the Ring and be reduced to a powerless spirit. But that may have been only a hypothetical threat and if anybody could really master the Ring and supplant Sauron is another Question. Tolkien himself wrote in a Letter that only Gandalf might be expected to master it, but if he really could is debatable (i think not). There is also a difference between wielding and mastering: a sufficiently powerful Ainu (for example Saruman) or Elda (for example Galadriel) might be capable of wielding the Ring and use it to dominate others, raise Armies etc. but they could not master it and would certainly lose in the final confrontation against Sauron.