The Unfair Fate of Saruman

[Morthoron]

*in a sudden moment of seriousness, the Dark Elf elucidates*

Saruman, like Sauron, was given a chance to repent, although in different ages and under different circumstances. That they eschewed the chance for penitence and judgment before their superiors marked them for oblivion; whereas, Boromir was absolved by asking forgiveness at his death (and thus the "fundamental Catholicity" of Tolkien).

This chance for forgiveness and redemption is a notable theme throughout Tolkien's work. Even Morgoth frittered away a chance at redemption earlier on.

[Ivriniel]

The Uruk Hai, a blended race, to mirror what Melkor did to the Elves (debate about Tolkien's refinement of this area aside later in his life). That's pretty perverse. On the verge of making new Rings. I.e. from hero Istari to replicator of the greatest of evils in Arda's history.

Those two deeds, imo, place Saruman as serioulsy at odds with the Valar, and in an irredemable place.

[Lotrelf]

Yes, Saruman had an unfair fate, so did Melkor, and Sauron as well. All evils have "unfair" fate. They deserve pity, not sympathy. Valar did not know the evil in Melkor's heart initially, but later he did suffer greatly (that I'm sure he did, and you cannot ignore that). Saruman was given various chances of redemption and repentance and he chose do more and evil. Once I'd read an article/ thread where a person had made list of 7 people who resisted the Ring-- and Saruman was no 7th position, I still struggle to see why he would at 7th position. (can someone clarify this? Why is was okay to put Saruman in the list of those who resisted the Ring?).

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

(can someone clarify this? Why is was okay to put Saruman in the list of those who resisted the Ring?).

Do you mean this article?
https://www.eviscerati.org/articles/...ng-Rather-Well
I can't "clarify" it because that would mean agreeing with what the author has said. His reasoning is based on false premises.

And since we know from some of the things Gandalf says that he was instrumental in the assault that drove Sauron/The Necromancer out of his fortress in Mirkwood, we can assume he was still working for the Good Guys at that point, and he had been studying the One Ring long before that.

Saruman delayed the Council from attacking Dol Guldur for a long time because he was hoping the Ring would reveal itself. When he finally relented it was because he was becoming concerned that Sauron would find the Ring before he did. He did not have positive motives for the attack, and had actually been making motions towards becoming a "Power" in Middle-earth for some time, albeit in secret.

He is lowest on the list because he never actually comes into contact with the ring and is corrupted by it anyway--and, also, he gets points deducted because he's really an incredible jerk--but he still gets a nod because as far as I can tell he was studying the ring and being seduced by it for an incredibly long time before he finally gave in.

I don't see how he even qualifies for inclusion, then. He can hardly be said to have "resisted" the One Ring just because he was aware that it existed and studied Ring-lore. Although I daresay they did not to the same extent, you might as well include Elrond or even Denethor on the list for almost the same reasons.
Saruman never came into the presence of the One Ring in his entire life. I think his inclusion here is just an effort on the part of the author of this article to be surprising, in addition to writing based on incomplete knowledge. He also writes

"Galadriel scores higher on the list than Gandalf because she is actually put in the position of being offered the ring directly, so she is tempted directly."

Wrong again. Frodo offered Gandalf the Ring as well:
"You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?"
I suppose it's just the author's opinion but Sam only bore the Ring for a day, more or less. Frodo carried it almost all the way to Mordor and didn't succumb until the very end. Also Boromir only "resists" the Ring after Frodo's put it on and run away. He still tried to take it, unlike Galadriel or Gandalf, who were mightier than him (albeit more wise, but I won't get back into that discussion again...) and arguably had greater need of it.

My point is, I think this article's argument that Saruman "resisted" the Ring is nonsensical. He never encountered it personally, and he fell anyway!

[Lotrelf]

Yes, that was the article I was talking about. I didn't say you have to agree with it, 'cause I didn't agree with that too, and most people wouldn't as well. I agree with EVERYTHING you have said. Saruman never encountered the Ring, that's why there's no logic of him being in the list at all. Whatever the excuses are given by the author do not justify his (Saruman's) evil deeds. And thus his "resistance" makes on sense to me.
Also, the list, to me, seems more about "who gave up the Ring willingly" than "who resisted it."
On a side note, didn't Galadriel let herself be tempted unlike Gandalf? She let herself be tempted and resisted, something that Gandalf didn't do (because he never needed it, and I think she needed to do so in order to be accepted in Valinor). Whatever the reason is, that does not make Gandalf inferior to Galadriel.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

On a side note, didn't Galadriel let herself be tempted unlike Gandalf? She let herself be tempted and resisted, something that Gandalf didn't do (because he never needed it, and I think she needed to do so in order to be accepted in Valinor). Whatever the reason is, that does not make Gandalf inferior to Galadriel.

Galadriel's desire for power to resist Sauron and preserve the beauty of Lothlórien was her temptation, and an obvious one. But I don't think it can be said that Gandalf had never felt the pull of the Ring. When Frodo offers him the Ring (as he later does Galadriel), Gandalf's response seems no less considered than does Galadriel's.

'With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly. Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself, Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good.'

FOTR The Shadow of the Past

Compare that with Galadriel's rejection of the Ring.

'You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night!....Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!'

FOTR The Mirror of Galadriel

If Gandalf had not been tempted, I do not think his reaction to Frodo would have been so near to Galadriel's words.

[Lotrelf]

Gandalf's reaction was same as Galadriel, and he feels the pull as well, but I don't think he is really as tempted as Galadriel. Because he does not let himself do it. Someone who comes in the contact of the Ring, and goes unaffected must be someone of the "mightiest will" and the mightiest will is of Eru. My point is, Galadriel actually feels the pull, and probably more than Gandalf. This does not mean Gandalf hasn't resisted it, but Gandalf was not as tempted, or he was not in such circumstances.
The case with Galadriel is that she allows herself to do so(because she has reasons, and being the Wise, I don't think, she'd give in too easily), while Gandalf doesn't.