how durin founded the longbeards

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

There was no Dwarven settlement in the Iron Hills until Grór led part of Durin's Folk there in 2589 after their halls in the Grey Mountains were destroyed by Cold-drakes.

I ran across a couple of quotations pertinent to this in Of Dwarves and Men:

[In the First Age]...the Longbeards had spread southward down the Vales of Anduin and made their chief 'mansion' and stronghold at Moria; and also eastward to the the Iron Hills, where the mines were their chief source of iron-ore. They regarded the Iron Hills, the Ered Mithrin, and the east dales of the Misty mountains as their own land."

And then in note 30:

It was a brief period in the dark annals of the Second Age, yet for many lives of Men the Longbeards controlled the Ered Mithrin, Erebor, and the Iron Hills...while the Men of the North dwelt in all the adjacent lands as far south as the Great Dwarf Road that cut through the Forest (the Old Forest Road was its ruinous remains in the Third Age) and then went North-east to the Iron Hills.

Much of this I find interesting, including the early association of Durin's Folk with Erebor, and the origin of the Old Forest Road. Anyway, none of this states unequivocally there was ever a -settlement- in the Iron Hills before T.A. 2590, but it seems to me as likely as not, at least for a time...both in the history of Middle-earth, and in Tolkien's ever-changing conception of the same.

But that's based merely on the above: there may very well be evidence to the contrary of which I'm ignorant.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Much of this I find interesting, including the early association of Durin's Folk with Erebor, and the origin of the Old Forest Road. Anyway, none of this states unequivocally there was ever a -settlement- in the Iron Hills before T.A. 2590, but it seems to me as likely as not, at least for a time...both in the history of Middle-earth, and in Tolkien's ever-changing conception of the same.

But that's based merely on the above: there may very well be evidence to the contrary of which I'm ignorant.

Good catch, I'd forgotten about these remarks. Interestingly the first seems to contradict the widely-presented assumption that the Grey Mountains and the Iron Hills were Second and Third Age remnants of the Iron Mountains. This text implies they were separate features as early as the First Age.

Evidently I spoke too soon when I dismissed the Iron Hills, although I think we can agree that, unlike Belegost, Nogrod and Moria, they did not feature an "ancestral home" of the Dwarves. I might argue, especially in reference to another recent discussion about the repopulation of Erebor after the death of Smaug, that the Iron Hills for the majority of their history might have primarily existed as a mining facility. They may have only featured a major "settlement" and population during the period of Grór and Dáin's dominion there.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Good catch, I'd forgotten about these remarks. Interestingly the first seems to contradict the widely-presented assumption that the Grey Mountains and the Iron Hills were Second and Third Age remnants of the Iron Mountains. This text implies they were separate features as early as the First Age.

It's still possible; if the East-central Iron Mountains were damaged at the Breaking of Utumno and Melkor's first Chaining the Grey Mountains and Iron Hills could be remnants of that part of the Iron Mountains, and therefore the remnants date back a lot further than the Second or Third Ages.

[Kuruharan]

It has been awhile since I have read Tolkien deeply so I am a bit hazy on the timeline...but if the Grey Mountains are a remnant of the Iron Mountains, wouldn't that mean that Aule originally placed Durin in the mountains very near the strongholds of their great enemy?

In fact, according to this map Gundabad is not far from Utumno.

What I can't remember right now is how near in time to Melkor's initial mayhem and chaos the dwarves were created and awakened. Had Utumno been destroyed yet?

Maybe the proximity to Melkor is the reason why Durin decided it best to head south rather than stay at Gundabad.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What I can't remember right now is how near in time to Melkor's initial mayhem and chaos the dwarves were created and awakened. Had Utumno been destroyed yet?

It is said in The Silmarillion that the making and subsequent temporary dormancy of the Dwarves preceded the awakening of the Elves. It was for the sake of the latter that Melkor was assaulted in Utumno, and that stronghold destroyed.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Maybe the proximity to Melkor is the reason why Durin decided it best to head south rather than stay at Gundabad.

Angband was of course still in being when Durin awoke, and that indeed could have been a factor in his travels.

[Kuruharan]

I do seem to remember now words to the effect of "Aule made the dwarves during the domination of Melkor" or something to that effect, hence why the dwarves are so stubborn and resistant to the domination of others.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It is said in The Silmarillion that the making and subsequent temporary dormancy of the Dwarves preceded the awakening of the Elves. It was for the sake of the latter that Melkor was assaulted in Utumno, and that stronghold destroyed.

So it sounds like Aule's placement was done deliberately. I wonder if he originally intended the dwarves to be a bridgehead in resistance to Melkor and maybe after Eru's intervention he intended the dwarves to repopulate the parts of the world that had been mostly deeply under the domination of Melkor.

Angband was of course still in being when Durin awoke, and that indeed could have been a factor in his travels.

Following up my repopulation theory, didn't the Vala assume Angband was deserted after the War of Powers?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

So it sounds like Aule's placement was done deliberately. I wonder if he originally intended the dwarves to be a bridgehead in resistance to Melkor and maybe after Eru's intervention he intended the dwarves to repopulate the parts of the world that had been mostly deeply under the domination of Melkor.

Well, Aulë placed the Fathers in widely dispersed locations, but it may be notable that the Eldest, Durin, was apparently placed the most westerly of them. Maybe it was thought that he might be able to rally all Dwarves against Melkor if it came to it.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Following up my repopulation theory, didn't the Vala assume Angband was deserted after the War of Powers?

Apparently. Angband was imperfectly searched after Melkor's defeat. The Balrogs were able to remain hidden there until Melkor needed them to assist with Ungoliant.