Morgoth, Sauron and the Tale of Adanel

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'd like to note that Sauron was always there in some sense. It is implied that Sauron was probably the one to breed the Orcs though it may have been borne of Melkor's mind beforehand. It is also said concerning his lieutenant;

"In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part." [Silmarillion, p. 26]

An excellent point. Of course as we observed in one of the other threads recently, Sauron "thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice."
My reading of The Silmarillion was also a bit scanty. This remark is made shortly afterwards regarding Morgoth's desire to enslave Men and thus wield them against the Elves in war:

"But this design was slow to ripen, and was never wholly achieved; for Men (it is said) were at first very few in number, whereas Morgoth grew afraid of the growing power and union of the Eldar and came back to Angband, leaving behind at that time but few servants, and those of less might and cunning."

So perhaps Morgoth never personally revealed himself at Hildórien at all. He may have spied and devised a plan (insofar as he was capable of much planning) before, as is stated, returning to Angband and sending other servants capable of taking on a fair appearance, but ones of "less might", so evidently not Sauron, to further the corruption of Men. The phrase "at that time," however, suggests that more numerous and potentially more powerful servants arrived later, which might potentially include Sauron, I suppose. The Tale observes once Men had built a temple to Morgoth that "If at great need we dared to go to the House and pray to him to help us, we heard his voice, and received his commands." Presumably Morgoth, incarnate in Angband, could not actually hear prayers made elsewhere, nor answer them, so perhaps there was a "man behind the curtain" scenario going on. It's altogether possible then, I suppose, that the entire affair was played out by Morgoth's servants and not by Morgoth himself.

[Belegorn]

Yea it was probably not Morgoth. Basically in that lore his forces were trying to turn Men away from Eru, so they rebelled against Eru and some later rebelled against Melkor. However, it was was claiming "I did this..." or "I did that..." such as creating the satellites and stars, but Varda is the one to do these things and the Valar made the Sun and moon. I'm not sure who among his servants are speaking as Melkor himself, but at least in this lore from Andreth it appears that Men were really only set on the road to rebellion, and not used much or amalgamated into Melkor's forces. Some of the Men were given power, but otherwise I don't get the idea that there was some grand plan here to put Men to use other than to delude them about who was who.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'm not sure who among his servants are speaking as Melkor himself, but at least in this lore from Andreth it appears that Men were really only set on the road to rebellion, and not used much or amalgamated into Melkor's forces. Some of the Men were given power, but otherwise I don't get the idea that there was some grand plan here to put Men to use other than to delude them about who was who.

Yes it seems more like the objective achieved was to turn Men away from Eru, whereas that of amalgamating Men into a force Morgoth could bring crashing down on Beleriand in great numbers was, to judge by what actually happened, an objective which failed. It's worth noting that the corrupter of Men simply refers to himself as the "Lord" and is referred to by Men as the "Master," not by any particular name. It might be argued, then, that the Men under the Shadow did not have a very well-established idea of the identity of their "god," just that he was the Lord or Master. In that sense I can see why it was easy for Sauron to take advantage of this in the Second Age, where he appeared as Morgoth's representative, and in the Third as Morgoth returned. It must have been easy to just show up, put on a bit of a show and convince people that you were acting on behalf of or were the same person as this nebulous "Lord." Then again Sauron himself could not have come among Men in splendour in the Third Age, but they were probably used to being in fear of their "god" rather than admiring him by that point.

We know, however, that Sauron did not always play-act the "representative" even in the Second Age. Among Men in the east and south he was "both king and god." The Black Númenóreans "worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge." The worshippers at the Temple in Armenelos when Manwë sent lightning against it called him a god as well. But I suppose it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for Sauron to set himself up as both representative and god in the process of establishing his dominion. Sauron "desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures." This suggests to me that Sauron wanted Men to think of him, Sauron, himself as "god." He didn't want to control people by pretending to be Morgoth or setting himself up as their old "Lord" or "Master," but actually wanted to be perceived in himself as "god." This might be an arrogant relic, perhaps, of his "positive purposes": perhaps this impulse derived, in an extremely corrupt fashion, from seeing himself as the "saviour" of Middle-earth from disorder and chaos (although I daresay by that point such a motive had completely devolved from "I want power to save Middle-earth" to just "I want power because I'm proud and vain.")

I wonder how much the Númenóreans knew at the end of the Second Age. Did they know at the time that "Zigûr" was the same person as Sauron, the old servant of Morgoth? Did they know who "Sauron" was? When Ar-Pharazôn asked Sauron "Who is the Lord of the Darkness?" did he know (or at least suspect) what the answer would be, but was afraid to ask because the name of Melkor was forbidden? When Sauron said "It is he whose name is not now spoken; for the Valar have deceived you concerning him," he seems to be implying that even at the end of the Second Age the Númenóreans were still somewhat familiar with Morgoth's identity.

[denethorthefirst]

The statement from Tolkien that Sauron claimed to be Morgoth returned in the Third Age always strikes me as odd. I have an idea what Tolkien maybe tried to accomplish here, that Sauron usurped his former Master, etc. But I dont think that it fits Saurons personality at all. Ever since the War of Wrath Sauron tried to be his OWN person, a ruler and god in his own right. Why would he abandon that all of a sudden in the Third Age, for no apparent reason? I do not think that his pride would have allowed him to play-act as another person, as if he himself is not good enough, not great and powerful enough for worship. After all, he has no reason in the Third Age to act in such a way, the political benefits must have been minimal. At the time of the Third Age Sauron has been, as Sauron, a God for the humans in the East and South for thousands of years, why the sudden change of his image and persona? I am not quite sure if that statement can be considered canon, i think it clashes with Saurons established personality and his modus operandi.