who are the nazgul?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

The nazgul was said to be great kings of men,but who are this great kings?numenor had only one kings,which is probably tar-minastir at the time of the forging of the rings.khamul is an exception,we know who he is.so,any idea who are the rest of the nazgul?

Hey there Tom

There's some additional materials about them in UT, Hunt for the Ring, where you get some insights into their thinking, ways of sensing, and about the hierarchical relationships amongst them. Looks like they 'lived' together in Minas Ithil (Morgal) during periods.

There is some dispute about the number and kind who were numenorean. Someone posted somewhere that Sauron nabbed some of them during his time on Numenor--but the dates don't reconcile for that. The crisis period for the Gwaith-i-Mirdain is 1695 SA, with some 700 years until their first appearance, around SA 2251. In was around 1800 SA that Numenoreans began settling on the coast of Middle Earty (and even somewhat earlier, after 1700, in fact, when Tar Minastir sent aid to Gil Galad, just as Sauron was about to topple Lindon). They settled, not only in Umbar, but at other strongholds, some near Edhellond.

It was not until SA 3255, Numenor's 25th king Ar-Pharazôn sailed to Middle-earth. That's well and truly after the Nine's first appearance. Not sure where they dwelt during Sauron's stay on Numenor.

This history hints at some of the possibilities for the origins of the Nine, in a sweep of options broader than Umbar and the East. I wonder if the Blue Wizards had any role in the process, who were Istari who fell into the 'evil of sorcery' in the East. We never find out if they were competitors, or non-events for Sauron--or allies.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

There is some dispute about the number and kind who were numenorean. Someone posted somewhere that Sauron nabbed some of them during his time on Numenor--but the dates don't reconcile for that.

The quote I gave from "Akallabêth" states definitively that there were three. They certainly did not receive their rings from Sauron while he was in Númenor because he didn't go there until much later, but as you've stated there were many Númenóreans in Middle-earth before that, hence my suggestion about "colonial lords."

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I wonder if the Blue Wizards had any role in the process, who were Istari who fell into the 'evil of sorcery' in the East. We never find out if they were competitors, or non-events for Sauron--or allies.

For them to have been involved they would have to have come to Middle-earth in the Second Age, which was suggested but never settled upon by Professor Tolkien, and they would also have to have fallen to the shadow - another thing he never settled upon - and abandoned their mission extremely quickly. That being said, I can't see why they would need to be involved. Sauron already had plenty of influence in the East without the need for intermediaries.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The quote I gave from "Akallabêth" states definitively that there were three. They certainly did not receive their rings from Sauron while he was in Númenor because he didn't go there until much later, but as you've stated there were many Númenóreans in Middle-earth before that, hence my suggestion about "colonial lords."

It's in the Akallbeth, that we're told

"...ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenorean race".

(emphasis mine)

This is a reference in materials about the Shadow that falls upon Numenor, and though Sauron may not have brought The Nine Rings directly to Numenor--we do know that he developed a grudge about Tar Minastir's involvement, 1700 SA, in the Battle of the Gwathló, when Sauron was defeated by the Númenorean force from Vinyalondë, at which time,

Sauron was routed utterly and he himself only narrowly escaped. … Humiliated he returned to Mordor, and vowed vengeance upon Númenor.

Quote's from UT, tale of Galadriel and Celeborn, which is one of the few materials around that extends Silmarillion materials in relation to stuff about events during and after the sack of the House of the Mirdain.

Interestingly, we know that the Shadow falls on Numenor, around 1800. Now--requoting--

"...ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenorean race".

The Witchking was someone, it seems, with a particular grudge against Numenor. I wonder--a Prince of Numenor--possibly even a blood relative of the Line of Elros--at the least, a Prince of noble ranking, around the time Tar Minastir starts sacking ME and laying harbours down.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was a rival to the King, and jealous of that power. Perhaps someone humiliated by a High Council in Numenor. Sauron, I suspect, chose the person by reputation, or by appeals to conceit, after the 'humiliating' defeat. Sounds like a basis for the grudge match to me. Sauron got personal.

Whoever it was Sauron chose, they had about 700 years before getting scary. Given the Numenorean lifespan, I wonder then also--probably not one of the Numenoreans who lived 400 years (Elros's line in the Kingship). Perhaps this Prince was just your average Numenorean then. In any case, Tar Atanamir was born in 1800, and around this time, dissent first appears in Numenor, and soon after, the choice not to return Life to Eru, voluntarily, but for the Kings to cling on until death. This all makes me wonder--if these three chosen Numenoreans, for a while, were present making trouble in Numenor.....

[mhagain]

According to the Tale of Years, the Shadow fell on Numenor about SA1800, with the Ringwraiths first appearing about SA2251.

If we cross-reference this with the Line of Elros in UT (and ignore the error which CT draws attention to in note 10 - it doesn't seem relevant to this particular discussion anyway) we see the following happening inside this time-window:

the Númenóreans in his service exacted heavy tribute from the men of the coasts of Middle-earth

This provides one obvious source for the "three great lords": they were Númenóreans in service of the King (possibly quite high-ranking officials) involved in extracting this tribute, and Sauron lured them with the Rings and promises of more temporal power.

This is, of course, purely conjectural, but it seems to fit.

There is as far as I know absolutely nothing in Tolkien suggesting that the Witch-king himself was a Númenórean (aside from a note cited by Hammond and Scull that he was "probably" one). He could just as easily have been Haradrim or Easterling. There also seems no reason for him to have any particular grudge against Númenór aside from just carrying out his masters will.

[Ivriniel]

I think it likely the Chief of the Nazgul was Numenorean. I don't have the citation, I'm lifting off the web, but Hammond & Scull, Reader's Companion, p. 20, a manuscript of notes, Tolkien [apparently] stated that the Witchking's name and background were not recorded, but that he was probably of Númenórean descent.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I think it likely the Chief of the Nazgul was Numenorean. I don't have the citation, I'm lifting off the web, but Hammond & Scull, Reader's Companion, p. 20, a manuscript of notes, Tolkien [apparently] stated that the Witchking's name and background were not recorded, but that he was probably of Númenórean descent.

In the Akallabêth it says that three of the Nazgûl were Númenórean "lords"
Also, in Letters #156 there is a footnote stating that "the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl " were Númenóreans, Since the Witch-king was the chief of the Ringwraiths, his status as one of those Númenórean "lords" seems all but assured.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In the Akallabêth it says that three of the Nazgûl were Númenórean "lords"
Also, in Letters #156 there is a footnote stating that "the wicked Kings who had become Nazgûl " were Númenóreans, Since the Witch-king was the chief of the Ringwraiths, his status as one of those Númenórean "lords" seems all but assured.

I don't think the Letters citation is so conclusive either. It seems possible for a Númenórean "king" (perhaps of a petty-realm in Middle-earth) to become a Nazgûl but yet be submissive to a more powerful Haradrim king (as a fellow Nazgûl). It also seems probable that Sauron would grant leadership of the Nazgûl to one who had been under his dominion longer.

The second-in-command of the Nazgûl is confirmed to have been an Easterling, so therefore we know that at least two of the other Númenórean "kings" or lords who became Nazgûl were submissive to an Easterling. If two, why not three?

But on balance this can really go nowhere. The only thing is that there is no real evidence after all, and it's important to establish that the common assumption that the Witch-king must have been Númenórean has very little basis in Tolkien's writings.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I think it likely the Chief of the Nazgul was Numenorean. I don't have the citation, I'm lifting off the web, but Hammond & Scull, Reader's Companion, p. 20, a manuscript of notes, Tolkien [apparently] stated that the Witchking's name and background were not recorded, but that he was probably of Númenórean descent.

That's the note I've referred to above, and is so far as I'm aware the sole indication. In full:

In the manuscript of Nomenclature Tolkien notes that 'the name and origin of the Witch-king is not recorded, but he was probably (like the Lieutenant of Barad-dur [the Mouth of Sauron]) of Númenórean descent).'

Here "Nomenclature" is the work sometimes known as Guide to Names in the Lord of the Rings (and originally published as such in A Tolkien Compass), subsequently published as Nomenclature of the Lord of the Rings in Hammond & Scull.

Even with the best of intentions this is shaky evidence. The work existed in 3 versions: an original manuscript, a subsequent typescript and a final professional typescript (which was subsequently corrected by Tolkien), and the reference to the Witch-king's origin is only noted to have been in the manuscript. It certainly doesn't appear in Hammond & Scull's edition (aside from the early reference to the manuscript, but it's not in the work itself) (I don't have A Tolkien Compass for cross-checking).

The reason for it's omission from subsequent versions could be rejection (maybe Tolkien felt it preferable to leave this matter vague), or it could be because it's not really relevant content here: it's a sign that the work was drifting away from it's original intention (to be a guide for translators) and towards introducing new story elements, after all.

Even aside from that, use of the word "probably" certainly should not be read as a definite indication.

So taken together the "evidence" amounts to:

• Use of the word "probably",
• In an earlier version,
• Which was subsequently removed,
• In a work that was intended for use by translators, not for public consumption.

None of this should be read as any kind of argument that the Witch-king was not Númenórean, of course. He could still be. It's just that the evidence for him being so is not actually very strong at all, so it's necessary to be careful about making statements or claims that depend on it.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by mhagain

(aside from a note cited by Hammond and Scull that he was "probably" one).

The "probably" is important, isn't it? The point is that we don't know. In my opinion, thematically speaking, it's important that we know as little about the Nazgûl as possible. I think their anonymity is meant to enhance their horror.
I don't think it's unreasonable for the Lord of the Nazgûl to have been a Númenórean, but yes it's important to remember that he wasn't necessarily one.

Originally Posted by mhagain

There also seems no reason for him to have any particular grudge against Númenór aside from just carrying out his masters will.

I agree. In fact taking a Ring actually seems to be quite compatible with the fallen Númenórean mindset.

Originally Posted by mhagain

According to the Tale of Years, the Shadow fell on Numenor about SA1800, with the Ringwraiths first appearing about SA2251.

I suppose it depends how long it took for them to become wraiths, because 2251 is only 30 years after the reign of Tar-Atanamir when the tribute was exacted and 222 years after his reign began. If they received their rings during the tribute period, ie during the reign of Tar-Atanamir at some point, that's not that much time for a Númenórean to exceed his natural lifespan. But I suppose it could be enough depending on how old they were and how quickly the Rings worked.
The Númenóreans had been settling Middle-earth during the reign of Tar-Minastir, Tar-Ciryatan's grandfather, however, which was still about a century after the War of the Elves and Sauron, so there were plenty of opportunities when Sauron might have been dispensing Rings.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I suppose it depends how long it took for them to become wraiths, because 2251 is only 30 years after the reign of Tar-Atanamir when the tribute was exacted and 222 years after his reign began. If they received their rings during the tribute period, ie during the reign of Tar-Atanamir at some point, that's not that much time for a Númenórean to exceed his natural lifespan. But I suppose it could be enough depending on how old they were and how quickly the Rings worked.
The Númenóreans had been settling Middle-earth during the reign of Tar-Minastir, Tar-Ciryatan's grandfather, however, which was still about a century after the War of the Elves and Sauron, so there were plenty of opportunities when Sauron might have been dispensing Rings.

This is an interesting question, but I don't think you can set a fixed time from receipt of a Ring to becoming a Ringwraith.

Gandalf's words to Frodo in Shadow of the Past are the best indication I can find:

A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and
walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.

From this it seems to be the case that it's not exceeding your lifespan that makes you a wraith, it's using the Ring often. Also, if you're well-meaning or if you're particularly strong, the process takes longer.

Smeagol/Gollum had the Ring for about 600 years, but "it was long since he had worn it much: in the black darkness it was seldom needed" so he didn't become a wraith. As Hobbit-kind he was more resilient too, of course. Bilbo had it for 60, and was already starting to feel "all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread". Also a Hobbit, also more resilient.

I think taking a median-point in Atanamir's reign and assuming that they used the Rings a lot, 100 years would be plenty of time for an already corrupted Man to become a Ringwraith. A total guess of course but it seems reasonable.