Arnor- Designed For Failure?

[Galadriel55]

I think a big factor is that Gondor was not subservient to Arnor, but an equal and independent country. It wasn't some kind of colony. Therefore, it wasn't obliged to keep Arnor militarily stronger than itself.

The second big factor is men. Fortifications and towers mean nothing if there are no men to defend them. Arnor could have had the strongest cities, but because of the divide between men they were all weakened from inside.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think a big factor is that Gondor was not subservient to Arnor, but an equal and independent country. It wasn't some kind of colony. Therefore, it wasn't obliged to keep Arnor militarily stronger than itself.

The second big factor is men. Fortifications and towers mean nothing if there are no men to defend them. Arnor could have had the strongest cities, but because of the divide between men they were all weakened from inside.

The lack of men could be because of the great plague,and the disunity between the kingdom.but arthedain semm to be able to push back angmar for a while,with the help of the elves.then,angmar attack again,this time arthedain was pushed to fornost.it could be because of winter,evil creature,plague,and wight make men dwindle in arnor.

[cellurdur]

After the destruction of Morgoth, I don't think evil was ever strong enough to defeat the West by might alone. It needed to corrupt them to gain the victory.

Apart from the lack of men power that has been noted due to plague etc we have to take into account exactly who Arnor was fighting for the most part. It was not the Witch King that destroyed Arnor, but the civil wars for me. Just look at how the Civil War in Gondor destroyed the capital city. It was probably the Numenoreans themselves that found ways to destroy the fortresses and cities of Arnor. Think what happened to Osgiliath and then remember than Minas Morgul was going to be completely destroyed. Once Arnor had sufficiently destroyed themselves, they became easy pickings for the Witch-King.

[tom the eldest]

nah,there are civil war in arnor,but it was mainly rhudaur vs cardolan,arthedain still maintain peace,although maybe there are some difference with rhudaur.the witch-king is the one that make arnor fell,but maybe the harsher climate of the north that make arnor dont have as much population as gondro,i think that many northern men(of numenorean descent)move to gondor because of the climate in gondor is nicer.when angmar attack,arnor would have much less population than it used to be.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

nah,there are civil war in arnor,but it was mainly rhudaur vs cardolan,arthedain still maintain peace,although maybe there are some difference with rhudaur.

I agree with cellurdur. It is said, "There was often strife between the kingdoms, which hastened the waning of the Dúnedain." [Appendix A., The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain] Remember, the Witch-king, "came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion". They themselves aided in their own demise and their constant fighting gave the Witch-king hope that he might overcome them from Angmar in the north.

By the time of the 7th ruler of Arthedain there were no descendants of Isildur in the other 2 divisions of Arnor, although there were still a few Dúnedain still abiding in Rhudaur even though it was controlled by a lord of the Hillmen. In the 1600s a plague wiped out the Dúnedain of Cardolan and their last prince died in the war of 1409 with Angmar.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

it fell into decay, conquered by the Lord of the Nazgûl and his army of evil men. Why was that?

It was because the kingdom was not united.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Their Tower of Amon Sûl was taken and razed.

They really dwindled in numbers quickly up north. About 200 years after this war the whole population of Dúnedain in Cardolan was wiped out by a plague. The Elves helped get them out of this jam.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

it has always seemed to me that the Witch-king's victory over them was easier than it should have been

Perhaps. I don't know. The Dúnedain had few children, had them late, or not at all, and were dying a lot. Gondor was the greater kingdom in any case. Consider as late of the 2nd to last king of Gondor, when he sent a small fleet to aid the last king of Arnor.

"Then Eärnil sent his son Eärnur north with a fleet, as swiftly as he could, and with as great strength as he could spare. Too late.... when Eärnur came to the Grey Havens there was joy and great wonder among both Elves and Men. So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond were also filled; and from them descended an army of power, with munition and provision for a great war of kings. Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a SMALL sending-force of the whole might of Gondor." [Appendix A., Gondor and the heirs of Anárion]

This minor force seemed to the Men up north to be great. That's the difference between the two kingdoms and this is a Gondor in its decline.

[tom the eldest]

But arthedain and cardolan wereable to hold the witch king for hundreds of years,with cardolan and arthedain working together,they could prevent angmar from invading.they cant directly assault cardolan because arthedain can sent armies from weather hills and struck their flank and rear.angmar was forced to make all-out assault,with several armies to distract the defenses while the main one going to cardolan.this show that if angmar dont use such tactics,then earnil(ur?)couldarrive in time.

[tom the eldest]

And from tolkien gateway,in the fall of fornost,arthedain have at least 10.000 troops,with several thousand elves,and 500 hobbits.that 10.000 is quite a lot,and surely able to man every wall of fornost.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

But arthedain and cardolan wereable to hold the witch king for hundreds of years,with cardolan and arthedain working together,they could prevent angmar from invading.they cant directly assault cardolan because arthedain can sent armies from weather hills and struck their flank and rear.angmar was forced to make all-out assault,with several armies to distract the defenses while the main one going to cardolan.this show that if angmar dont use such tactics,then earnil(ur?)couldarrive in time.

Early on they were able to hold back the Witch-king for a while but they did have need of help. However, they were able to be invaded because they were fighting over territory, namely the Weather Hills. The Weather Hills were part of Arthedain territory and the other 2 wanted it and it bordered on their realms. Also the Kings of Arthedain were claiming lordship over the whole of Arnor since the other descendants of Isildur died out in the other 2 realms, which resisted this claim.

"In token of this claim all the kings of Arthedain, and the chieftains after them, take names with the prefix aran, ar(a) signifying 'high king'." [PoM-E; ch. 7, The Heirs of Elendil]

"In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor." [Appendix A., The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain]

(7) Argeleb l
(8) Arveleg l
(9) Araphor
(10) Argeleb
(11) Arvegil
(12) Arveleg ll
(13) Araval
(14) Araphant
(15) Arvedui

When the Dúnedain were fighting each other, Arthedain/Rhudaur over Weathertop, the latter had men in league with Angmar. "The Witch-king of Angmar taking advantage of war among the Dunedain comes down out of the North. He overruns Cardolan and Rhudaur." [PoM-E; ch. 7, The Heirs of Elendil] Cardolan did aid Arthedain, but Weathertop was overrun with a huge army from Angmar 50 years later. The people of Angmar chased and killed the remaining Dúnedain of Rhudaur and those of Cardolan took refuge at or by the Barrowdowns.

In the final assault that finally broke the last defense I believe there was ONLY Arthedain at this point. The other lands had long been ravaged and the Dúnedain too diminished at this point. When Arvedui came to Gondor to claim the kingship it was not Arnor that they saw as a small thing, "to most men in Gondor, the realm in Arthedain seemed a small thing" [Appendix A, Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion]. So there was no other Dúnedain kingdom left for the armies of Angmar to go through before assaulting Fornost in 1974. They were fighting the people of Angmar even before "the Witch-king was preparing a last stroke against it in 1973." Over 300 years before that in 1636 the Great Plague had wiped out the remaining Dúnedain of Cardolan. So for some time it was really Angmar vs. Arthedain and "King Araphant continued with dwindling strength to hold off the assaults of Agmar, and Arvedui when he succeeded did likewise;" it was in 1964 when Arvedui had become king.