The differences between Elves and Men

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Galin

Not if you take what Tolkien himself published as the answer, and put the problematic rest at the doorstep. Aha! A confident answer based upon my own ideas about canonical status!



Anyway the correct answer is: Eldar at first referred to all Elves, but then came to refer to those Elves who passed Over Sea during the Great March, plus the Sindar only!

The Silmarillion concept is 'wrong'. Debate is pointless. You will be assimilated, and so on. This post is something like ironic. But doesn't it just figure that I really think that 'should' be the answer, even still.

Oh well

I always though in the same way you do.
So the Nandor aren't considered Eldar... That explains a lot.

[arathorn]

Exactly Galin for you to be write there must be to many possibilities:
1- Interpret the sentence in another possible way, so changing his mind.
2- It's only a "change" if it was written after 1968 and we don't know when it was.(another reason for not to trust the Authors)

[Galin]

Originally Posted by arathorn

I always though in the same way you do.
So the Nandor aren't considered Eldar... That explains a lot.

We agree? Well it had to happen sometime

Yes The Lord of the Rings not only decribes the Eldar [as basically 'West-elves'] in Appendix F, the translation section, but in the language section describes the Silvan tongues as not-Eldarin [although not Eldarin doesn't necessarily mean Avarin].

And I know there are those who will correctly tell me that Tolkien was rushed in the early 1950s, with the Appendices and so on, but heck he did revise the thing in the 1960s too.

And even if so, I say that even JRRT has to deal with what he publishes about the Subcreated World, despite that sometimes the way he dealt with it was to revise it!

Now, about 'High Elves'... :runs:

[arathorn]

[QUOTE=Galin;691067]We agree? Well it had to happen sometime

I think the only things we don't agree is about the Eldar height and maybe one aspect of their physical appearance since you may think they are slimmer than men.

[Galin]

But you might only disagree with what you think I may mean about slimness...

... so I'm not sure I agree that we necessarily disagree about that

Although granted you said maybe.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

but in the language section describes the Silvan tongues as not-Eldarin [although not Eldarin doesn't necessarily mean Avarin]

In 'Quendi and Eldar' (1959-60) Nandorin (and thus its derivatives Ossiriandic and Silvan) is expressly stated to be of Lindarin/Telerin origin, and therefore Eldarin.

This had been a question mark ca. 1936, it seems, since in the 'Lhammas' (B-version) the tongue of the 'Danians' was "like that of Doriath, but not the same" (amended from the A-text in which it was wholly unlike the speech of the Eldar and Beleriandic Ilkorins). But then in 'Lammasethen' Danian appears as a 'middle Quendian', neither Eldarin nor 'Lemberin'/Avarin (however, Thingol's folk are there promoted to 'Eldar').



The footnote to Appendix F is interesting. It doesn't appear in the first draft of that Appendix, written before the Great Linguistic Upheaval ca. 1951-52. From that time we find in the Grey Annals, entry VY 1350, that the Nandor (there so named for the first time) were explicitly Teleri, and so their language was Eldarin.

The App F draft itself alters the Lammasethen conception and distinguishes between Eldarin, Lemberin and Avarin tongues, the Lembi or 'lingerers' at that time incorporating both the Sindar and the Danians/Nandor; the "many secret tongues" of the Avari are said not to come into the LR. At this time of course Lemberin of Doriath and the Vales of Anduin was of course not Sindarin, which didn't yet exist (or more accurately, the language existed but was still called Noldorin and came from Valinor).

But App F as published appears on the face of it to return to the old conception, West-elves of Valinor and Avarin East-elves! (except for the 'promotion' of the Sindar). Indeed, text F4 of the appendix, written after the GLU with Sindarin now ensconced as the native tongue of Beleriand, says in so many words that the native peoples of Lorien and Mirkwood, despite their Sindarin nobility, were Avari: "many were Eastern Elves that had hearkened to no summons to the Sea, but being content with Middle-earth remained there, and remained long after, fading in fastnesses of the woods and hills....Of that kind were the Elves of Greenwood the Great; yet among them also were many lords of Sindarin race. Such were Thranduil and Legolas his son. In his realm and in Lorien both the Sindarin and the woodland tongues were heard; but of the latter notrhing appears in this book."

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(...) In 'Quendi and Eldar' (1959-60) Nandorin (and thus its derivatives Ossiriandic and Silvan) is expressly stated to be of Lindarin/Telerin origin, and therefore Eldarin. (...)

Yes, and no doubt this issue is made notably misty and more complex due to posthumously published texts.

But App F as published appears on the face of it to return to the old conception, West-elves of Valinor and Avarin East-elves! (except for the 'promotion' of the Sindar). Indeed, text F4 of the appendix, written after the GLU with Sindarin now ensconced as the native tongue of Beleriand, says in so many words that the native peoples of Lorien and Mirkwood, despite their Sindarin nobility, were Avari: "many were Eastern Elves that had hearkened to no summons to the Sea, but being content with Middle-earth remained there, and remained long after, fading in fastnesses of the woods and hills....Of that kind were the Elves of Greenwood the Great; yet among them also were many lords of Sindarin race. Such were Thranduil and Legolas his son. In his realm and in Lorien both the Sindarin and the woodland tongues were heard; but of the latter notrhing appears in this book."

Well put as I expected

But I would emphasize 'on the face of it', as the word Avari was not employed in the final form of any text in the Appendix F, and the distinction between West-Elves [Eldar] versus the East-elves is maintained...

... but who are the East-elves? Not that you said otherwise, but I think they don't have to be Avari according to the author-published description [nor do the Minyar have to be named the Vanyar necessarily, on the Eldarin side of this coin]. They could be Telerin, they could be Avarin, they could be a mix of Teleri and Avari, as they are some grouping of Elves that are yet distinct from the West-elves -- those Elves who passed Over Sea plus only the Sindar.

And so what remains once the mist of all this posthumous complexity is blown away? To my mind: most of the Elves of Lorien and Mirkwod are East-elves, not Eldar, nor their languages Eldarin.

Which JRRT not only decided to publish in the 1950s, but if he was unhappy with this scenario, he yet didn't revise it given the chance in the 1960s.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

Yes, and no doubt this issue is made notably misty and more complex due to posthumously published texts.




Well put as I expected

But I would emphasize 'on the face of it', as the word Avari was not employed in the final form of any text in the Appendix F, and the distinction between West-Elves [Eldar] versus the East-elves is maintained...

... but who are the East-elves? Not that you said otherwise, but I think they don't have to be Avari according to the author-published description [nor do the Minyar have to be named the Vanyar necessarily, on the Eldarin side of this coin]. They could be Telerin, they could be Avarin, they could be a mix of Teleri and Avari, as they are some grouping of Elves that are yet distinct from the West-elves -- those Elves who passed Over Sea plus only the Sindar.

And so what remains once the mist of all this posthumous complexity is blown away? To my mind: most of the Elves of Lorien and Mirkwod are East-elves, not Eldar, nor their languages Eldarin.

Which JRRT not only decided to publish in the 1950s, but if he was unhappy with this scenario, he yet didn't revise it given the chance in the 1960s.

They were, perhaps, Keeblerin Elves: shorter of stature, intent on perfecting baked goods (in imitation of the Noldorin Lembas), but still fond of living in trees.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, although the term "Avari" only entered the vocabulary with Quendi and Eldar, the description in F4 fits them to a tee: "hearkened to no summons to the Sea;" or perhaps rather, given the lack of a statement of active 'refusal' but including "content with Middle-earth remained there, and remained long after, fading in fastnesses of the woods and hills" it appears we have the Lemberi or 'Lingerers' of the Lhammas again.

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I'm not one to try to draw bright lines of 'canonicity;' I think ultimately the legendarium is its history, and changes and inconsistencies are part of it. Given Tolkien's way of working andf constant changes of mind, I don't think it's helpful to set up one dustbin of "posthumously-published works" that includes everything from vague sketches about the Dome of Varda, speculative essays like 'Orks', and works like Quendi and Eldar which were never intended for publication but rather as 'background' or 'lore' for JRRT's private purposes, and which were I think intended (at the time of writing) to be 'definitive' (allowing of course for the transient nature of 'definitive' when we're dealing with JRRT!

I also wouldn't put disproportionate weight on 'dogs that didn't bark' in the Revised Edition, which was after all not a comprehensive overhaul but a quick-and-dirty job for the purpose of regularising the US copyright. Some things T happened to have in his head and was happy to include, like the extended account of the Kinslaying; some were fairly 'easy' name changes like Finrod > Finarfin (tho he was imperfect even with that one). But T in revision hadr a tendency to pounce upon particular things that caught his eye, not a systematic approach at all. Certainly it's the case that he had definitely changed his mind about the Silvan tongue, even if he didn't amend App F; his Letters are unequivocal.