Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Nerwen]

I don't think the age at which Earendil and Elwing married and had children tells us anything.

On the one hand, it doesn't have to mean they were maturing *slower* than garden-variety mortals- marriage customs, life expectancy and so forth should not be confused with the actual biological clock. Perhaps they'd just waited so as not to scandalise their Elvish relatives...

-On the other hand, it makes them "eleven" only if you assume that the version in "Laws and Customs" was what Tolkien had in mind when he was writing Earendil and Elwing's history (or, for that matter, Dior's). The question, then is- do we have any good reason to believe this is the case? (I'm not at all sure Sador's words do count as "corroboration", since he gives no specifics.)

EDIT: in case of misunderstanding, "eleven" refers to age and is not a typo for "elven"!

[Ivriniel]

I take your point....that's the other way to get at this. I like that style of analysis, which is about making an inference, from the way the story was told, in text, as a narrative.

I haven't had a chance to wade through the narratives we have (e.g. The Silmarillion, and how the actual story was told, and what that might mean. For hints about the rate Elf children age).

I can't recall, off the top of my head, in UT, or other materials, LotR, The Hobbit and Unfinished Tales what essays say in text about elf kids. This is unlike Aragorn, where, in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, text specifically says several important things about Numenorean maturation.

Aragorn "...was new to manhood, early", i.e. about 20/21, at most, as was the way Numenorean kids could/did, though they live 'thrice the span' of other Men (though this, in Letters, even has been cited at 'twice' not 'thrice'). But *in text* it is stated, "thrice" many times. We also know Aragorn met Arwen when he was around 50ish in Lorien, where she got all swoon-y about him and starry eyed, and all like "oh, he's lordly-est of lordified, look at him and how hot he is".

Relevance of this? ....of the Line of Elros... and the supposition that early maturation does not imply shorter longevity. I'd never heard of anything different to that for Elfy folk.

Certainly, the half-elven do not appear to mature more slowly. Are there any in text stories about Elf kids, and how early they matured? I can't think of any. I'm going to return to The Silmarillion and have a look....

[Ivriniel]

There's another mode of analysis available about the rate of maturation of Elves. Beleriand's history in FA is relatively short, some 500 years, it would seem.

I don't see indication of 200 year maturations being viable in this setting, in a generational legacy of Elven births. For example, Gondolin is constructed in 54, Aredhel leaves Gondolin at year 104, presumably not as a child. (anyone dispute this?) Maeglin is born in 320. Gondolin falls 510. He was 190. Definitely fully mature.

Earendil and Elwing born 503, depart for Valinor 525. This one, in my reading is pretty influential (Elwing was 3 parts Elf, 1 part Man). They didn't get to Valinor until 542 - I didn't realise that journey took them so long Anyhooz, she was 22 by the time she was on a boat with her beloved.

Dior Born 470, weds Nimloth 497 (27).

I am annoyed that significant elfy births aren't so prominent, and with the notable absence of indications of their maturation, so, we have a lot more half-elfy ideas. I'm not sure this should be taken as a problem. Wombs. Gestations. Etc seem pretty similar as do developmental trajectories.

The elfy materials are somewhat less definitive, but do have some implications about maturation, in a "not greater than" statement. Aredhel, 104 years.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I don't see indication of 200 year maturations being viable in this setting, in a generational legacy of Elven births. For example, Gondolin is constructed in 54, Aredhel leaves Gondolin at year 104, presumably not as a child. (anyone dispute this?)

Yes I dispute this; Aredhel was born in Valinor, long before Gondolin was founded and was a fully grown woman by the time of Feanor's rebellion.

Aside from that yes, it seems Elves did not mature that much slower than men in the chronologies (though 50 years still seems feasible). But then, the essay stuff Tolkien wrote often did not mesh with the actual stories.
I think he tried to give the Elves a slower maturation rate to explain why there were only four generations by the time of Feanor's rebellion and not six or seven or more.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Moreover, Idril also was born in Tirion; Turgon's wife died in the Helcaraxe and Turgon barely saved his daughter.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Moreover, Idril also was born in Tirion; Turgon's wife died in the Helcaraxe and Turgon barely saved his daughter.

Exactly, and a lifespan of 190 years is more than enough for Maeglin to mature at a pace of 50 or even 100 years. He was a fully grown adult for some 90-140 years. Tragically short by Elven standards, but still longer than most humans even get to live. If he had not been fixated on Idril to an unhealthy degree Maeglin could have been a father or even grandfather by the time of his death. The Siege of Angband alone would have been enough for at least 3-4 generations to mature and reproduce.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

Yes I dispute this; Aredhel was born in Valinor, long before Gondolin was founded and was a fully grown woman by the time of Feanor's rebellion....

Cheers Orhpalesion,

That makes my comment about Aredhel and her 100 years, and making an inference about rates of elfy maturation, like Entwive wombs grow corn, because Aredhel unValinored her Eolisation, when Maeglin vomited the Silmaril...up...again...backwards

It has been a very long time since I re-read the Silmarillion--probably 15 years, and I got all tra la la lally, Goldberry Ungolients Lembas, and so, womb-ed elf children, about Aredhel

I just re-read "Of Maeglin", here's something interesting....

...but his father gave him no name until he was twelve years old. Then he called him Maeglin, which is sharp glance.

The Silmarillion, p. 160, paperback, Allen & Unwen, 1979 Edition (it's good 'n old, nice yellowed pages

Not this tells us definitively a great deal, but there was no reason to presuppose that we're to think of anything other than your 'average 12 year old' as we read this prose. Surely JRRT would have said something about differentials in maturation rates for this, were we supposed to think that Maeglin was 'younger' developmentally, than a human. Just a thought.

On an aside, I'm sorry, but how on Valinor can Maeglin be a 'Dark Elf'. The text says "he was kinsman of Thingol of Doriath!" And bangs on, several times, about Eol being proudly Telerin, cross, bothered and spitting chips about all the Noldor-ish Elfy things ruining his Telerin party. Though, he has dark hair! Ha? Telerin, and all that! Poor Maeglin, though. I mean, what chance have you got - ma is poisoned to death by a javelin, by dad, who was trying to kill Maeglin. Then, the Noldor-ish idea about 'justice' was to - um WHAT - TOSS EOL off the CLIFFS! OMG! Then, Maeglin gets his first cousin all increasingly weirded out coz he has the hots for Idril, who just gets weirder in her behaviour towards Maeglin, which weirds Maeglin out further and makes him all dark and--evil? Ha?

Sorry, Tolkien's got a few problems here. Maeglin is a product of perverse Elfy conventions, who think it's okay to toss relatives off cliffs, but who think Maeglin's a great weirdo for thinking what he did about his first cousin. I mean, Eru-have mercy! Maeglin wasn't socialised with his first couz and so, to his perspective, she's just a beautiful Elf. He wouldn't have the same kinds of feelings as would be expected for close co-rearing and growing together as children. Really! Those Elfy conventions were harsh and would have warped Maeglin, leaving him vulnerable for warping by Morgoth.

[Mithalwen]

They didn't chuck him of the cliff for nothing though did they? If the Silmarillion teaches us anything it is that elvenkings are a bit touchy about their daughters and their privacy...

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

They didn't chuck him of the cliff for nothing though did they? If the Silmarillion teaches us anything it is that elvenkings are a bit touchy about their daughters and their privacy...

[lighthearted]hahaha I hear ya - it's okay for Galadriel, isn't it! She can marry her cousin, (well, second cousin--but if you're gunna split hairs, Tolkien, really, Galadriel and Celeborn shared their grandfather in Olwe of Alqulonde, in an essay he wrote, one month before his death. His last work, in fact). And never mind that just about every bloodline in Arda of the elfy lord-ified, elfy people kept interbreeding!

I mean, come on Elu, really? You ar *that* uptight? Oh my god! I've got a headache just thinking about you. Poor Melian, you blockhead! Beren and Luthien need to go to the 12th dimension with a trans-warp drive (not yet invented--you know that batwing cloak she flew as in disguise of a 'vampire' or something--pretty creepy in a way), then sings the Dark Lord to sleep, coz he's just, really, down deep misunderstood and likes a lullaby.[/lighthearted)

*pulls self together*

I do love the mythology, and I love Tolkien's style, and I will still tear up at the old tales. But, as I've aged, I grow more forgiving of some of the characters, like Frodo at Orodruin, and Maeglin, who...

*turns to Turgon* *furrows brow, and points finger* Man!--sorry--Elf!--what on earth did you think would come of ur elfy justice! You should have been much kinder to ur son in law. And as for your grandson--ah dah--u taught him 'do as I say not as I do, young man!'. Never works Turgon. So don't go getting all 'it's all Melkor's fault' about all this. You should have cautioned ur precious granddaughter to be a little more kind to her cous, and maybe, if you all just chatted about it, rather than tossing elfy people off cliffs, you'd still have ur lovely city.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Beards anyone on the men of Elendil's line (I'm not sure on that item)?

The statue of the (presumably Gondorian) King at the Cross-roads (above Osgiliath) was bearded.

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On Dior: Turin was nicknamed Adanedhel, "Elf-man," but that doesn't mean he was literally a half-elf.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Beards anyone on the men of Elendil's line (I'm not sure on that item)?

The statue of the (presumably Gondorian) King at the Cross-roads (above Osgiliath) was bearded.

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On Dior: Turin was nicknamed Adanedhel, "Elf-man," but that doesn't mean he was literally a half-elf.

Cheers wch. The 'beard' comment goes to the other debate. Imrahil's lot didn't have 'em, I understand it, coz they were elf-y. About the competing idea that Elendil's bloodline influenced princes of Dol Amroth....