Denethor vs. Aragorn

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Thanks for putting forward the idea much better than I did.

I'm not sure he's actually echoing you. He claimed to be interpolating so that in itself would be a marker that he was not. You two are actually not saying the same thing.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'm not sure he's actually echoing you. He claimed to be interpolating so that in itself would be a marker that he was not. You two are actually not saying the same thing.

Please explain to me the difference, because I cannot see what it is?

[Sarumian]

I think we all have got the point and agreed with it. Therefore an argument on this tiny logical differences should be left over for personal messages.

On the matter. First of all, I cannot believe Aragorn would have waged a civil war. No way. In that case he, not Boromir, would've claimed the Ring. Secondly, he wouldn't necessary have made any claim right after the siege of Gondor to Denethor's utter surprise. Captains of the West could have marched on the Gates of Morannon even without Denethor's support: they did not need huge numbers.

Upon return to Gondor, Aragorn would have had an overwhelming support of the population and of the ruling elite. Denethor would have been unable to deny that Aragorn had made the thing he (Denethor) himself had failed to achieve.

Therefore, in the situation when Aragorn's

lordship and dignity

was evident, the formalities could have been settled in the way that other respected Downers have already demonstrated. Think, that the Council would have voted unanimously, and Denethor would have abstained but would have passed the sceptre either to Aragorn or to his own sun for further decision. I believe that in that case Aragorn would have created him a Prince of Ithilien, while Faramir would have become a new Stewart and Denethor's heir. Such a honour could have pleased the old man and probably would have kept him from committing suicide.

I also believe, Denethor would not have made any treachery - he was above such things.

God, such much of the third conditional! Hope, I did it correct

[Morthoron]

Eärnil II was elected king of Gondor because of his generalship, his control of the Gondorion army, his lineage, and, most importantly, the lack of a competitor with an army in the area. Arvedui could make counterclaims until he was blue in the face, but he was way up north in Arnor, powerless to stop Eärnil, and lacking any clout with the council.

The same can be said of Aragorn. If Denethor survived, there would be little he could do. Aragorn had control of the army, was victorious against Sauron, had a claim for the throne better than anyone in a millenium, and was highly respected by both Prince Imrahil and Faramir; whereas, Denethor, had he survived, could be charged with dereliction of duty and perhaps attempted murder and treason. From a cynical standpoint (and not at all in Aragorn's character), all that had to be done was to reveal that Aragorn was the great Thorongil returned, and Denethor would have been sent into retirement somewhere unpleasant, like in a hut overlooking a slag pit in the Morgul Vale.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The same can be said of Aragorn. If Denethor survived, there would be little he could do. Aragorn had control of the army, was victorious against Sauron, had a claim for the throne better than anyone in a millenium, and was highly respected by both Prince Imrahil and Faramir; whereas, Denethor, had he survived, could be charged with dereliction of duty and perhaps attempted murder and treason. From a cynical standpoint (and not at all in Aragorn's character), all that had to be done was to reveal that Aragorn was the great Thorongil returned, and Denethor would have been sent into retirement somewhere unpleasant, like in a hut overlooking a slag pit in the Morgul Vale.

Or combine both this and the other concept; make Denethor Lord of the now conquered Mordor lands, and task HIM with putting them back into shape on a sort of "You sort of helped to cause all this, now you fix it!" mentality. It probably isn't all that risky. However much Denethor hates Aragorn, he hated Modor even more, so concepts like him trying to become the new dark lord himself seems remote. Aragorn could even let him keep the Anor stone(he has the Orthanc stone, so he really doesn't need to keep two so close together) so that he can keep an eye on him. Let Denethor keep those troops that are loyal to him (presumably his personal guard) and see how he does.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Or combine both this and the other concept; make Denethor Lord of the now conquered Mordor lands, and task HIM with putting them back into shape on a sort of "You sort of helped to cause all this, now you fix it!" mentality. It probably isn't all that risky. However much Denethor hates Aragorn, he hated Modor even more, so concepts like him trying to become the new dark lord himself seems remote. Aragorn could even let him keep the Anor stone(he has the Orthanc stone, so he really doesn't need to keep two so close together) so that he can keep an eye on him. Let Denethor keep those troops that are loyal to him (presumably his personal guard) and see how he does.

Well, if Aragorn had really wanted Denethor to commit suicide, he would have done something like this.

Seriously, Denethor (in the book) does not deserve such accusations. He struggled to do his best, he fully prepared city to the fight. It was neither in his, nor in any other man's or elf's capacity to win the struggle.

And, in the end, he would have been too much exhausted to carry out a truly challenging duty. But he, in my opinion, deserved a nice retirement.

[cellurdur]

Aragorn's not going to force the people or the council of Gondor to accept him as king, but if the majority do then he is not going to turn it down, because Denethor dissents. If the majority of the nobles and people back Aragorn,and Dentheor tried to cause friction; I believe Aragorn would be fully prepared to put down Denethor and those that he roused to fight for him.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I cannot see what it is?

I know.

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I cannot believe Aragorn would have waged a civil war

I agree. It would seem totally out of place in this context anyway even with the history between Aragorn and Denethor, I do not think it was so bad as to result in a Civil War. Denethor was passionate but he did care about Gondor.