Elves and Ringwraiths

[Galin]

For the record I am not saying [in my last post] that there are no cases where we can say X is 'greatest' based on the text, but I was responding to two examples where there was, in my opinion, more comparative text [the Galadriel as Queen matter, for example]

Later as I have said previously Tolkien seemed to move away from this position and wanted a more definitive story most of the time, but certainly not all the time.

Can you explain what you mean here in more detail, maybe including examples to help mark the external time frame?

If I recall correctly, in general in the old scenario [let's say with the start of the 'Silmarillion', after The Book of Lost Tales and the poetry of the 1920s] Elfwine was to be a studious scribe, trying not to alter the tales as he heard them from Elvish Eresseans. This is more 'direct' than the later scenario.

My example of Annals of Aman and my conjecturing about Rumil's only possible 'bias' actually reflects the later scenario, with the transmission through Numenor and the Mannish Kindoms down to Imladris, allowing for more 'mistakes' and purposed variations.

I do think there was some intentional variation [compared to QS] in the Annals when they were first revised in the 1950s, that is, when they were still imagined as a variant tradition to Quenta Silmarillion.

But in any case we are essentially dealing with draft texts here: what would Tolkien's Silmarillon contain versus his Annals? It seems as if the existing Annals of the 1950s grew and morphed into another Silmarillion, and thus could be 'absorbed' into the Silmarillion, with The Tale of Years taking over for the Annals -- thus Christopher Tolkien took plenty of passages from the Annals, Aman and Grey, for his constructed Silmarillion.

What was to be intentional inconsistency, when there is plenty of natural inconsistency [Tolkien changing his mind, letting new and different stories flow as they came to him, and so on] in the external evolution of a complex tale, is very hard to say.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

For the record I am not saying [in my last post] that there are no cases where we can say X is 'greatest' based on the text, but I was responding to two examples where there was, in my opinion, missing or comparative text [the Galadriel as Queen matter for example]




Can you explain what you mean here in more detail, maybe including examples to help mark the external time frame?

If I recall correctly, in general the old scenario [let's say with the start of the 'Silmarillion', after The Book of Lost Tales and the poetry of the 1920s] Elfwine was to be a studious scribe, trying not to alter the tales as he heard them from Elvish Eresseans. This is more 'direct' than the later scenario.

My example of Annals of Aman and my conjecturing about Rumil's only possible 'bias' actually reflects the later scenario, with the transmission through Numenor and the Mannish Kindoms down to Imladris, allowing for more 'mistakes' and purposed variations.

But in any case we are essentially dealing with draft texts here: what would Tolkien's Silmarillon contain versus his Annals? It seems as if the existing Annals of the 1950s had grown and morphed into another Silmarillion, and thus could be 'absorbed' into the Silmarillion, with The Tale of Years taking over for the Annals [thus Christopher Tolkien took plenty of passages from the Annals, Aman and Grey, for the constructed Silmarillion].

What was to be 'intentional' inconsistency, when there is plenty of 'natural inconsistency' in the external evolution of a complex tale, is very hard to say.

In one of his earlier letters he mentions the problem with 'translations'. As studious as Elfwine was there was bound to be mistakes.

The change to the myths being Mannish seemed to come from Tolkien's desire to put the myths even more in align with Catholic theology.

An example of this is in the 50's he gets a letter about whether the orcs being irredeemable is heretical. At the time he dismisses the concern and says it is of little importance to his story. Yes later on he definitely changes his mind on the importance of orcs being redeemable. He writes philosophical reasons on what the orcs are and whether they can be redeemed. In the end settling on the notion that the it's possible that Eru could redeem them.

The use of the stories having a Mannish origin is more to clear up things he could not quite translate. The lates 50s when he started making significant edits and the revisions to Quenta Silmarillion is when I noticed a change.

With his desire to write a more 'accurate' cosmology of Arda, seems to have come with it a desire to write a more 'accurate' history. Once you begin to translate the truth about the Two Trees it is inevitable, that you will begin to write about the 'truth' of Feanor.

The use of the Mannish myths seems to be a way of keeping the older stories, which in my opinion were more beautiful.

The essays he writes such as Glorfindel, where he reasons and comes to a conclusion about who Glorfindel was and why he was sent back; look to me like someone trying to find the 'true story.'

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

In one of his earlier letters he mentions the problem with 'translations'. As studious as Elfwine was there was bound to be mistakes.

Which letter please? I need some context here.

(...) With his desire to write a more 'accurate' cosmology of Arda, seems to have come with it a desire to write a more 'accurate' history. Once you begin to translate the truth about the Two Trees it is inevitable, that you will begin to write about the 'truth' of Feanor.

The use of the Mannish myths seems to be a way of keeping the older stories, which in my opinion were more beautiful.

But that means that the 'truth' of the Two Trees is now questionable as a Mannish myth.

The essays he writes such as Glorfindel, where he reasons and comes to a conclusion about who Glorfindel was and why he was sent back; look to me like someone trying to find the 'true story.'

Well, but I don't see how this, or a few examples, necessarily supports the great shift in thinking that you appear to be referencing.

It seems to me that there are always going to be arguable examples of Tolkien working out what he wants to present as 'true' in the sense of 'it exists in the legendarium', but the general scenario -- from older to later as far as The Silmarillion goes -- appears to be a move away from directness of transmission so that the story of the Two Trees can be preserved...

... not the absolute truth that that's how the Sun and Moon really came to be, however.

Now in the case of Finwe's sons, I think originally there is a case that the translations were not completely accurate. Not only was their author bias in the case of Rumil, but there was also 'mistranslation' by the official translator, which led to more mistakes. These 'mistakes' were deliberately left in.

Later as I have said previously Tolkien seemed to move away from this position and wanted a more definitive story most of the time, but certainly not all the time.

You see, here you refer to the 'bias' of Rumil, but I brought that up only as a sheer possibility when we had two variant traditions written at the same time [early 1950s], and within the scenario of the later transmission too, since that allows for more error.

What texts are you talking about with 'originally' here? According to this...

The lates 50s when he started making significant edits and the revisions to Quenta Silmarillion is when I noticed a change.

... I assume it is before the late 1950s.

Maybe I'm confused at this point, but you seem to be saying that Tolkien moved away from 'mistranslation' about the time he began to recharacterize the Silmarillion as largely Mannish, which to my mind allows for more mistranslation and variation that within the Elfwine scenario, Elfwine himself receiving the tales direct from Eressean speakers and putting them into Old English...

... to Tolkien's doorstep I guess.

Still generally speaking.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Firstly the popular opinion now is not 'good is good' and 'bad is bad,' but one of relativism. This is something that Eomer is questioning. He is asking does the matter of what is good depend on the time period? Or is good relative to everyone's culture.

Relativism with good and bad comes when there is a choice between two or more goods, or two or more evils. I doubt you'd say that the concept of murder is good, regardless of time and culture.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

People compare sportsman all the time. What do you think the Laureus award is? When you know a sport is quite easy to compare, which athlete is stronger when they raced in different conditions.

That's right - people give certain criteria by which to judge. They count up the points, performance, whatever. But that just tells you who scored more points that year, not who is actually stronger.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

'Great' or 'strong' is not the same as 'greatest' or 'strongest'. When there is a contradiction we can then discuss things, but until then I believe it's best to go with what has actually written, rather than adding our own interpretation into the text. How far do you want to go?

As far as I want to go. Texts are always interpreted. If you choose to interpret everything you read literally, I don't have to follow your choice.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

So you want to interpret the words of the text differently than they are written. Maybe when it says Finarfin is blonde it really means brunette? How far do you want to go? Luthien, Arwen and Galadriel do not compete for the title of fairest. There is no competition in Tolkien's writing. There is a unanimous winner: Luthing Thingol. In every several different writings she is called the 'fairest' that ever lived. There are too many instances to even begin to quote them.

But that's just your opinion. Neither Gimli nor Eomer fought to defend Luthien's beauty.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Firstly it was not my statement, but Tolkien's who knows the characters and their strengths perfectly.

Not the statement about Hurin, but your conclusion.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

So you want to take Tolkien's marveling at the strength of Hobbits literally, but not when he says Hurin's strength of Will was greater? Why is it a given that a man, would have the strength of Will to resist the greatest thing ever created when even Manwe initially was daunted by Melkor's eyes?

Did I ever say that I do not take Hurin's greatness literally? I said that I admire his strength of will very very very much. And I don't see why I should not also agree about the hobbits' greatness. What I am liberal in reading are superlatives, because I am hesitant to start ranking people and deeds based on pokemon cards.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Something being 'subjective' to our eyes does not mean there is no way of judging. Is the strength of Will Frodo needed to go on a diet the same as the strength of Will needed to destroy the ring? Both are subjective, but nobody is going to say the former required more mental strength.

Alright then. Whose will was stronger, Merry's when he stabbed the Nazgul or Pippin's when he looked in the Palantir? Go, judge, rank. Good luck to you.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Or maybe Tolkien wished to rank certain deeds and we should take him at his word. Where things contradict then we can argue, but where there is no contradiction why reject his words?

So you're that keen on having everything laid out from most to least. Why? Why do you need to rank things? Why can you not just appreciate each for what they are independent of any other?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Why does something loses importance if it is ranked? Please explain this to me? Ranking things does not reduce them to Pokemon cards.

Then how does this sound to you:

Gandalf - 400 strength -- 550 magic -- 450 mind
Aragorn - 350 strength -- 400 magic -- 400 mind
Boromir - 400 strength -- 300 magic -- 200 mind
Gimli - 450 strength -- 350 magic -- 250 mind

You see what I mean? Do you like LOTR, The Sil, etc when they are laid out like that?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Just, because you personally want to look at things one way does not mean others do.

That applies to both sides, you know.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Not all situations are hopeless and some deeds are greater than others. It does not distract from one 'great deed' to know that another was greater. Rather it gives you Sam hope that if Beren and Luthien could triumph 'in a worse place and black danger' than theirs, then they could make it too.

It takes away from the appreciation of the reader to have it all laid out and ranked like Pokemon cards. Oooh, this one is stronger, it has more points!

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't see why you don't take it seriously. When you pick and choose what the author means, despite him repeating an idea then what is next?

Actually, I decided Feanor wasn't the son of Finwe at all, but Miriel had a secret affair with Melkor. This explains everything. She doesn't want to come back from the dead because she's ashamed and afraid. Feanor has skill beyond any other elf. He has quite the character but also quite the charisma. He's so concerned with fighting for his place as Finwe's firstborn son. There's clearly something going on between him and Morgoth when you look at their interactions. Isn't it obvious?

...You realize I'm doing this just for fun, right?

There are some things that are facts. Lorien lies to the West of the Misty Mountains. The Misty Mountains are mountains. Galadriel has golden hair.

There are some things which are opinion-like descriptions. Galadriel is the fairest. Lorien is the fairest. Celeborn is the wisest.

There are some things you take as givens. They are husband and wife. There are some things you take as enhancements of the text and of your understanding. Galadriel is the fairest.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Just two of the many, many quotes naming Luthien as the fairest of all the Children of Illuvater in different books. If you can reject something that Tolkien repeatedly writes then what next do you want to reject?

If you claim that Luthien is the fairest, are you then claiming Tolkien lied about Arwen and Galadriel being the fairest? Because that's what you're suggesting. You are picking your winner based on the number of times her beauty is praised, but that doesn't really erase the other two candidates and the statements that clearly say they are the fairest.

I do not reject Luthien's beauty, or Hurin's willpower. I do not deny that they surpass most others'. But I also value the subjective things - the situation, the effort, the sacrifice - and take them into account. The problem I have with your approach is that in ranking people and things it takes things out of context and diminishes the value of things that are not the "---est". Moreover, I want to ask you, how far do you want to go? What's next? giving points for number of ocrs killed? Tricks performed? Better weapons? I do not and cannot agree to this approach. I have stated my thoughts on the matter, I hope with enough clarity. If you want to continue discussing this, perhaps we can take it to PMs instead of filling this thread with tangential debates.

Originally Posted by Galin

Or something else; perhaps Tolkien just writing, in the moment, enjoying superlatives.

I can completely see this happening.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Relativism with good and bad comes when there is a choice between two or more goods, or two or more evils. I doubt you'd say that the concept of murder is good, regardless of time and culture.

No it doesn't. Relativism comes when 'good' and 'bad' are reduced to cultural phenomenons. So for one culture child sacrifice is 'good' and for the other culture it is abhorrent.

Nazism in my opinion (controversial as it maybe) is an example of what can happen when you take Nietzscheism down a certain road.

That's right - people give certain criteria by which to judge. They count up the points, performance, whatever. But that just tells you who scored more points that year, not who is actually stronger.

No by using the criteria the experts have we do make a judgement call on who is strong. The problem with judging things like 'strength of will' is that we lack the necessary information to judge other people. We don't know what they are feeling, we don't know how strong their resolve is and this is why in real life it's probably best to not to be quick to pass judgement even when we know many of the circumstances.

When judging characters 'will' in a story it is a different matter. Depending on the story we get an insight into a character we would never get in real life.

As far as I want to go. Texts are always interpreted. If you choose to interpret everything you read literally, I don't have to follow your choice.

No and that is why you are free to decide that Feanor is really the child of Melkor. I of course will disagree with your interpretation.

But that's just your opinion. Neither Gimli nor Eomer fought to defend Luthien's beauty.

This point makes little sense. Gimli and Eomer never saw Luthien, but all who did are in agreement that she was the fairest that ever lived. Not just characters in the story, but the narrator and Tolkien himself are in agreement with this.

Not the statement about Hurin, but your conclusion.

I am just going by what Tolkien said.

Did I ever say that I do not take Hurin's greatness literally? I said that I admire his strength of will very very very much. And I don't see why I should not also agree about the hobbits' greatness. What I am liberal in reading are superlatives, because I am hesitant to start ranking people and deeds based on pokemon cards.

Ranking people in terms of might does not turn things into a Pokemon game. Tolkien does it all the time in LOTR. Melkor was the mightiest of the Ainur. The Valar were mightier than the Maiar. Maiar are mightier than men. The ranking has always been there and is part of life. Some people have greater will power and strength than others the same way some people are taller and stronger.

The way you look on things is up to you. Denethor was the time to look down and scorn people less gifted than he was. Faramir was the type to show understanding and try and help them.

Alright then. Whose will was stronger, Merry's when he stabbed the Nazgul or Pippin's when he looked in the Palantir? Go, judge, rank. Good luck to you.

Well Merry succeeding to the right thing and stab the Witch King is for me the greater strength than Pippin giving in and looking in the Palantir.

Just, because we are not aware of all the details does not stop as from being able to make a decision. This judgement call is precisely what a judge does when he passes sentence.

Tolkien as the writer of the story has a greater insight into the strength of will needed for certain deeds. So I respect his judgment on such matters.

So you're that keen on having everything laid out from most to least. Why? Why do you need to rank things? Why can you not just appreciate each for what they are independent of any other?

Actually I don't feel the need to rank things and do appreciate them for what they are. The bigger question is why are you so against ranking things? Especially when it's the author laying it out for you. The ironic thing is by judging the Hobbit's resilience as something 'great' you are already ranking it. The use of the word great means you have already ranked it above something you would consider mundane or average.

Then how does this sound to you:

Gandalf - 400 strength -- 550 magic -- 450 mind
Aragorn - 350 strength -- 400 magic -- 400 mind
Boromir - 400 strength -- 300 magic -- 200 mind
Gimli - 450 strength -- 350 magic -- 250 mind

You see what I mean? Do you like LOTR, The Sil, etc when they are laid out like that?

No, because metaphysical things are things we don't have a way of measuring accurately. That being said we the LOTR is clear that in strength of spirit Gandalf is greater than Aragorn and Aragorn is greater than Boromir. To reject that is to reject one of the facts in the books and in my opinion equal to rejecting Eowyn as a blonde.

That applies to both sides, you know.

Of course, but I am not the one arguing that we reject the author's words when there is no contradiction.

It takes away from the appreciation of the reader to have it all laid out and ranked like Pokemon cards. Oooh, this one is stronger, it has more points!

You keep taking things back to Pokemon, but that's never been the way things work in LOTR. However, there has always been a ranking from Melkor at the top down to the Valar and Ainur. The wizards themselves were assigned an order and rank.

Arda has it's own order in it and you want to reject all this. You are advocating a chaos where we are ignorant of that different beings are greater or less, but that's not the world we are given.

Actually, I decided Feanor wasn't the son of Finwe at all, but Miriel had a secret affair with Melkor. This explains everything. She doesn't want to come back from the dead because she's ashamed and afraid. Feanor has skill beyond any other elf. He has quite the character but also quite the charisma. He's so concerned with fighting for his place as Finwe's firstborn son. There's clearly something going on between him and Morgoth when you look at their interactions. Isn't it obvious?

...You realize I'm doing this just for fun, right?

There are some things that are facts. Lorien lies to the West of the Misty Mountains. The Misty Mountains are mountains. Galadriel has golden hair.

There are some things which are opinion-like descriptions. Galadriel is the fairest. Lorien is the fairest. Celeborn is the wisest.

There are some things you take as givens. They are husband and wife. There are some things you take as enhancements of the text and of your understanding. Galadriel is the fairest.

Now this is the crux of the debate. For Tolkien at least the question of spiritual power is not one of opinion. Melkor has the most might out of anything ever created.

If Hurin had the mightiest spirit out of any man, this is not an opinion. This is actually a fact.

Just, because we lack the abilities to judge strength of will in real life, does not make it so in a story.

If Tolkien tells us Turin was taller than Hurin, then this is as much a fact as if he told as Hurin had the greater strength of will to me.

If you claim that Luthien is the fairest, are you then claiming Tolkien lied about Arwen and Galadriel being the fairest? Because that's what you're suggesting. You are picking your winner based on the number of times her beauty is praised, but that doesn't really erase the other two candidates and the statements that clearly say they are the fairest.

When did Tolkien ever contradict Luthien as the fairest? A contradiction is not a lie whether it flows from a desire to have different opinions in a story or a genuine mistake. That being said Luthien is consistently mentioned as the fairest. You may wish for Galadriel to be a fellow competitor for the title, but this is just not there in Tolkien's work.

I do not reject Luthien's beauty, or Hurin's willpower. I do not deny that they surpass most others'. But I also value the subjective things - the situation, the effort, the sacrifice - and take them into account. The problem I have with your approach is that in ranking people and things it takes things out of context and diminishes the value of things that are not the "---est". Moreover, I want to ask you, how far do you want to go? What's next? giving points for number of ocrs killed? Tricks performed? Better weapons? I do not and cannot agree to this approach. I have stated my thoughts on the matter, I hope with enough clarity. If you want to continue discussing this, perhaps we can take it to PMs instead of filling this thread with tangential debates.

My approach does not diminish the value of other great deeds, unless you place importance on only being the best. If you only want to be the strongest or your favourite character to be the most beautiful then it diminishes them.

However, if you value beauty or the greatness of the act itself then what does it matter? Do you look down on a gift a friend gives you, because he gave someone else a more expensive gift? Do you stand and look at a beautiful landscape and think less of it, because years back you saw a more beautiful landscape?

There is beauty and value in all great deeds whether some are greater than others. As I said before by calling something a 'great deed' or saying someone has 'strong will' you have already began to place rank it.

It's best we agree to disagree on this matter.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Nazism in my opinion (controversial as it maybe) is an example of what can happen when you take Nietzscheism down a certain road.

I'd say it's when his philosophy is misrepresented, but not really put into practice. Nietzsche was used as a figurehead thanks to his sister, but the Nazis had as little to do with Nietzsche's philosophy as whatever you can describe as being like oil and water.

[Ivriniel]

@Celludur

Galadriel is a Queen. High Queen, in fact, not of 'all of the Noldor' (and because she is blended of all three kindreds, Noldor, Vanyar and Teleri, and in fact, of Royal lineage of all three houses). She most certainly is a Queen.

Her grandfather was Finwe, and her father Finarfin. Finarfin's mother is Indis of the Vanyar. Eawen, was daughter of Olwe of Alqualonde (not just Telerin, but a Royal Telerin Elf). Earwen wedded Finarfin.

Although she never inherited the High Kingship of the Eldar in Exile after Gil Galad was slain, that's not for lack of legitimacy in title. It's for the patrilineal emphasis in Elven Royalty, who, unlike the Numenoreans, never allowed females to access the High Kingship.

She was, however, most eligible, and arguably, more so than Elrond (he never saw the Light of Aman).

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Which letter please? I need some context here.

I am sorry I don't remember. It was something I briefly noticed whilst looking for something else, but I can find it during the weekend.

But that means that the 'truth' of the Two Trees is now questionable as a Mannish myth.

I don't think there is much doubt that Tolkien wanted to remove the 'Two Trees' as a Mannish myth. His problem was how to translate it, into the 'true history.'

Well, but I don't see how this, or a few examples, necessarily supports the great shift in thinking that you appear to be referencing.

It seems to me that there are always going to be arguable examples of Tolkien working out what he wants to present as 'true' in the sense of 'it exists in the legendarium', but the general scenario -- from older to later as far as The Silmarillion goes -- appears to be a move away from directness of transmission so that the story of the Two Trees can be preserved...

... not the absolute truth that that's how the Sun and Moon really came to be, however.

Except he didn't seem particularly keen on preserving the 'Two Trees'. Others urged him to do it, but he described such a cosmology story as absurd and ridiculous for intelligent elves to believe. He sought out ways to write 'true accounts' but in my opinion and others he let read them, they lack the beauty of the 'Two Trees'.

You see, here you refer to the 'bias' of Rumil, but I brought that up only as a sheer possibility when we had two variant traditions written at the same time [early 1950s], and within the scenario of the later transmission too, since that allows for more error.

What texts are you talking about with 'originally' here? According to this...



... I assume it is before the late 1950s.

Maybe I'm confused at this point, but you seem to be saying that Tolkien moved away from 'mistranslation' about the time he began to recharacterize the Silmarillion as largely Mannish, which to my mind allows for more mistranslation and variation that within the Elfwine scenario, Elfwine himself receiving the tales direct from Eressean speakers and putting them into Old English...

... to Tolkien's doorstep I guess.

Still generally speaking.

My point is when he started to disregard previous drafts as Mannish myths, he went about trying to write 'accurate accounts' of the myths.

For example explaining how when the elves were created Morgoth had the world created in a smog, but Manwe blew away the smog during the night and the elves first saw the stars and loved them ever since.

It's around this time he refocuses on things like the Children of Hurin and begins to hammer out things like makeup of orcs.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

My point is when he started to disregard previous drafts as Mannish myths, he went about trying to write 'accurate accounts' of the myths.

For example explaining how when the elves were created Morgoth had the world created in a smog, but Manwe blew away the smog during the night and the elves first saw the stars and loved them ever since.

It's around this time he refocuses on things like the Children of Hurin and begins to hammer out things like makeup of orcs.

So you mean the 'Myths Transformed' phase? This is where my confusion arises, as for me Tolkien abandoned these new attempts at a 'more accurate' cosmology -- more accurate because the Elves of the West should know better...

... but his solution was [as can be illlustrated by various late notes and commentary in my opinion]: retain the Two Trees [at least in Quenta Silmarillion], as JRRT recharacterizes Quenta Silmarillion as a largely Mannish affair. Christopher Tolkien even comments [Myths Transformed] that his father seems to have found his answer, but didn't employ it at once in any case, with the writing of these transformed versions [Manwe blowing away the smoke and so on]...

... but it is the ultimate acceptance that the Silmarillion is mostly a Mannish affair that allows Tolkien to retain the less accurate but more beautiful tales, without transformation. And to employ the idea means no need to rewrite: the Elves of the West are no longer telling their version of Cosmology direct to Elfwine.

In short don't make the myths more accurate, keep them and make certain sources hail from a folk who are less informed than the Elves of the West, some of whom had been in contact with the Powers or Maiar.

But this is all about transmission in any case, and speaks to a general scenario in which [again in my opinion] opens up the door to more variation, and actually I think it is relatively late that Tolkien 'ratifies' The Drowning of Anadune [DA] as a viable text in his legendarium, exactly because he now accepts that there need not be merely one version of the Drowning of Numenor, and that DA nicely contained Mannish confusions.

Anyway I'm not sure the idea you are suggesting [if I still understand it properly that is] can be proven objectively, at least easily. For instance you brought up orcs, but to my mind Tolkien only 'needed' [I'm not sure he really 'needed'] to hammer out the origin of Orcs because of a notable shift in thinking --

-- but that shift was that Evil could not create souls, or true living beings.

And the note published in Unfinished Tales might possibly be Tolkien's latest remark about Orc-origins, yet -- as he had done with the Orcs from Elves theory, putting the idea in the mouths of the Eressean Wise -- JRRT puts the matter [Orcs from Men] as something the Eldar said or believed.


On the possible other hand I have posted before that Tolkien as Subcreator 'should' be, and was, greatly concerned with consistency, and that the purposed inconsistencies should be like pepper in the soup -- some measure will actually help make the Subcreated World more believable, but too much will, or at least might, serve to help 'ruin' the taste. That measure is Tolkien's of course, but I am here speaking of a potential, ultimate legendarium published by the author himself [which is different from various draft texts when Tolkien is trying to work out the version of a given text]...

... but yet seemingly contrary to this [arguably] I also maintain that Tolkien was, in later life, more open to publishing textual variations like The Drowning of Anadune, a text that presents some drastic variations compared to earlier ideas [the shape of the world in origin being round, for example], and a text which was to be as much a part of the Legendarium as was Akallabeth; and again a text [DA] which also contained purposed confusion, like the Mannish authors confusing the Eldar with the Powers for instance.

And with respect to the Silmarillion related writings, Tolkien got more caught up in 'philosophical' issues, or with trying to explain the nature of the Elvish fea for example, or why Men could not live in Aman due to their inherent gift and so on... and maybe that's what you mean by more accurate and less mistranslation, I don't know.

But I'm guessing we might be mostly talking past each other here? Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, but I'm still not wholly sure we are going to place the same subjective characterizations upon a given example of Tolkien seemingly doing X at a given phase in in his life.

At least not in every case

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

So you mean the 'Myths Transformed' phase? This is where my confusion arises, as for me Tolkien abandoned these new attempts at a 'more accurate' cosmology -- more accurate because the Elves of the West should know better...

... but his solution was [as can be illlustrated by various late notes and commentary in my opinion]: retain the Two Trees [at least in Quenta Silmarillion], as JRRT recharacterizes Quenta Silmarillion as a largely Mannish affair. Christopher Tolkien even comments [Myths Transformed] that his father seems to have found his answer, but didn't employ it at once in any case, with the writing of these transformed versions [Manwe blowing away the smoke and so on]...

... but it is the ultimate acceptance that the Silmarillion is mostly a Mannish affair that allows Tolkien to retain the less accurate but more beautiful tales, without transformation. And to employ the idea means no need to rewrite: the Elves of the West are no longer telling their version of Cosmology direct to Elfwine.

In short don't make the myths more accurate, keep them and make certain sources hail from a folk who are less informed than the Elves of the West, some of whom had been in contact with the Powers or Maiar.

But this is all about transmission in any case, and speaks to a general scenario in which [again in my opinion] opens up the door to more variation, and actually I think it is relatively late that Tolkien 'ratifies' The Drowning of Anadune [DA] as a viable text in his legendarium, exactly because he now accepts that there need not be merely one version of the Drowning of Numenor, and that DA nicely contained Mannish confusions.

I don't think Tolkien ever did 'abandon' trying to translate the myths. He simply found the task very difficult and moved onto stories he did not have to 'translate' like the Children of Hurin.

He used the Mannish myths as an excuse to keep the prior cosmology and stories like the return of Turin. However, in his later works like the Children of Hurin, there is no mention of Turin returning. If he was still writing the as from a Mannish Numenorean perspective then he would have kept the Turin prophecies in. The fact that he now disregards them in his new story, supports the idea he is trying to write a more 'accurate' version of events.

Anyway I'm not sure the idea you are suggesting [if I still understand it properly that is] can be proven objectively, at least easily. For instance you brought up orcs, but to my mind Tolkien only 'needed' [I'm not sure he really 'needed'] to hammer out the origin of Orcs because of a notable shift in thinking --

-- but that shift was that Evil could not create souls, or true living beings.

And the note published in Unfinished Tales might possibly be Tolkien's latest remark about Orc-origins, yet -- as he had done with the Orcs from Elves theory, putting the idea in the mouths of the Eressean Wise -- JRRT puts the matter [Orcs from Men] as something the Eldar said or believed.

His last word on the topic seems t be orcs from corrupted spirits and men, bred by Sauron during Morgoth's captivity. It seems for this reason that orcs are not to be treated like mere beast and are under the 'Law' which beast are not.

On the possible other hand I have posted before that Tolkien as Subcreator 'should' be, and was, greatly concerned with consistency, and that the purposed inconsistencies should be like pepper in the soup -- some measure will actually help make the Subcreated World more believable, but too much will, or at least might, serve to help 'ruin' the taste. That measure is Tolkien's of course, but I am here speaking of a potential, ultimate legendarium published by the author himself [which is different from various draft texts when Tolkien is trying to work out the version of a given text]...

... but yet seemingly contrary to this [arguably] I also maintain that Tolkien was, in later life, more open to publishing textual variations like The Drowning of Anadune, a text that presents some drastic variations compared to earlier ideas [the shape of the world in origin being round, for example], and a text which was to be as much a part of the Legendarium as was Akallabeth; and again a text [DA] which also contained purposed confusion, like the Mannish authors confusing the Eldar with the Powers for instance.

And with respect to the Silmarillion related writings, Tolkien got more caught up in 'philosophical' issues, or with trying to explain the nature of the Elvish fea for example, or why Men could not live in Aman due to their inherent gift and so on... and maybe that's what you mean by more accurate and less mistranslation, I don't know.

But I'm guessing we might be mostly talking past each other here? Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, but I'm still not wholly sure we are going to place the same subjective characterizations upon a given example of Tolkien seemingly doing X at a given phase in in his life.

At least not in every case

I think the chief difference is that I believe Tolkien still wanted to keep the discarded stories, but only as Mannish myths. Not for everything of course, but for things like the Arda existing before the Sun we should take the story with a pinch of salt and realise they are mistakes.

However, for things he tried to edit later like Glorfindel's identity or Turin's story he wants to hand down a more accurate version.

As you said I don't think we will have to discuss this point on every topic, because you don't believe he left contrary stories deliberately on every story and I don't believe he left only one clear version on every story.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't think Tolkien ever did 'abandon' trying to translate the myths. He simply found the task very difficult and moved onto stories he did not have to 'translate' like the Children of Hurin.

I don't know what you mean by 'translate' here. All the tales have been translated in theory. Do you mean into Old English? If so I'm not sure how that fits into your argument.

He used the Mannish myths as an excuse to keep the prior cosmology and stories like the return of Turin. However, in his later works like the Children of Hurin, there is no mention of Turin returning. If he was still writing the as from a Mannish Numenorean perspective then he would have kept the Turin prophecies in. The fact that he now disregards them in his new story, supports the idea he is trying to write a more 'accurate' version of events.

Rather in a later text concerning the Second Prophecy, Andreth foretells of Turin's return at the War of Wrath. And in Morgoth's Ring Tolkien clearly recharacterizes the Second Prophecy as a Mannish myth.

His last word on the topic seems t be orcs from corrupted spirits and men, bred by Sauron during Morgoth's captivity. It seems for this reason that orcs are not to be treated like mere beast and are under the 'Law' which beast are not.

My point was that Tolkien, in my opinion was originally being 'accurate' in that Morgoth made Orcs [granted, merely in the sense that this is the version of the tale he wants imparted to readers]. This was the tale given to Elfwine. Later this could not be so, so JRRT looks for another idea. Not because of accuracy in general in my opinion, but because of a shift in thinking that Evil could not create in this way. I'm not sure how this examples illustrates Tolkien trying to be more accurate, in some sense, in his later life.

And in the late text I mentioned JRRT isn't giving us an objective fact, but an Elvish belief. That's not necessarily accurate in another sense, at least it's not necessarily objectively true -- while on the other hand it would still [arguably] be the version if no other variant opinions are given, in the sense of what is presented to the reader about the matter].

I think the chief difference is that I believe Tolkien still wanted to keep the discarded stories, but only as Mannish myths. Not for everything of course, but for things like the Arda existing before the Sun we should take the story with a pinch of salt and realise they are mistakes.

Why is this a difference? It's what I've been saying too

However, for things he tried to edit later like Glorfindel's identity or Turin's story he wants to hand down a more accurate version.

Again I don't get why you use these as examples of accurate. In my opinion Tolkien merely decided to answer the question of 'two Glorfindels'. I'm guessing you mean Tolkien wants to clear up this mystery, but from his perspective this was not a mystery to his readers in any case, as there was only ever one Glorfindel as far as many fans knew.

In any case there are different ways to be accurate and maybe that's part of why we are talking past each other at times.

As you said I don't think we will have to discuss this point on every topic, because you don't believe he left contrary stories deliberately on every story and I don't believe he left only one clear version on every story.

Very well but who does believe that Tolkien meant to have variations for every tale, and who does believe that he only left one clear version of every story.

I would guess no one