Elven Characteristics

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I agree that describing someone as 6'6 as a 6 footer may be pushing it, but I don't think it's rare for someone 6'4 to be described as a 6 footer when in a group with other people over 6 foot.

That is absurd. I am 6'2'' and my brother is 6'5". No one has ever described me as a 6 footer, and certainly no one has ever said that to my brother (who also weighs about 290 lbs -- he's usually referred to as a monster of one sort or another). Perhaps people who are 5'11'' might strive to be called a "6 footer", but when you are taller, it is evident to just about everyone.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That is absurd. I am 6'2'' and my brother is 6'5". No one has ever described me as a 6 footer, and certainly no one has ever said that to my brother (who also weighs about 290 lbs -- he's usually referred to as a monster of one sort or another). Perhaps people who are 5'11'' might strive to be called a "6 footer", but when you are taller, it is evident to just about everyone.

I have already given examples of this happening fairly often.

I think perhaps you need to look at the definition of what a six footer is.

six-footer
n
1. a person who is at least six feet tall

I emphasise the AT LEAST part.

Just have a look for yourself and you will see Edward IV the tallest ever English king commonly being referred to as a six-footer.

[Nerwen]

cellurdur, having seen the quote in context also, I don't understand why you suppose doing so makes any difference. I don't say- and never said- the quote necessarily means "Elendil was exactly seven feet tall". I say that at the time Tolkien wrote that Isildur and Elendil had both "been seven feet tall", he could not have really meant Elendil was almost eight feet tall.

Further, it is not necessary for someone to be extraordinarily, freakishly tall for him or her to be regarded as tall. You keep saying it is, but that doesn't make it so.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

cellurdur, having seen the quote in context also, I don't understand why you suppose doing so makes any difference. I don't say- and never said- the quote necessarily means "Elendil was exactly seven feet tall". I say that at the time Tolkien wrote that Isildur and Elendil had both "been seven feet tall", he could not have really meant Elendil was almost eight feet tall.

Further, it is not necessary for someone to be extraordinarily, freakishly tall for him or her to be regarded as tall. You keep saying it is, but that doesn't make it so.

Uhh why not could he have meant that Elendil was 7'10? 10 inches taller than the average is not freakishly tall for the tallest man in a country. Elendil being 7'10 is no different than a man being 6'8 today. Average height for a Uk male is about 5'10; somebody who is 6'8 would gain the nickname the tall not somebody 6'2.

So what height do you think would be acceptable then for the tallest man in a country, where the average height was 7ft?

So what do you think is a good estimate for a tall Numenorean if the average is 7ft? How about an exceptionally tall Numenorean? I am beaten by the logic. An average Numenorean is 7ft tall and one of the tallest Numenoreans is wait for it also 7ft tall. Elendil the Not so Tall at best was an inch or two taller than the average Numenorean makes perfect sense. I am finished replying to this topic.

[Lissë]

Thank you, Galin and Nerwen. This was very helpful. So elven women wore their hair braided? And Fingon as well? How do you think those braids looked like? Tolkien might have known photos of Native Americans, but since he was focused on Europe I guess we can exclude inspiration from that source. Unfortunately there are no illustration of Celtic hairstyles, and in the Middle Age women wore veils.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lissë

Thank you, Galin and Nerwen. This was very helpful. So elven women wore their hair braided? And Fingon as well?

You're welcome Lisse. Fingon seems to, generally speaking; I mean if Tolkien chose to mention this style for him...

At the moment I'm not sure about Elven women in general. The quote with Idril is from the very early [and abandoned] work called The Book of Lost Tales, and the reason I posted it was more to see if anyone knew of any possible Primary World description or custom that might reflect Idril wearing her hair 'unbraided' on her wedding day.

As I say in 'Hairy-pottering' I was more focusing on male descriptions, although today I was just reminded of Arwen Halfelven's description in The Lord of the Rings, with a mention of braids anyway: 'Young she was and yet not so. The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms...' There must be more descriptions for the women in JRRT's tales, but I haven't been looking for them lately.


Concerning Native Americans, I only have a vague memory of Carpenter's biography mentioning that Tolkien liked Native American stories and that he longed to shoot with a bow. Tom Shippey writes:

'In the same way Fenimore Cooper's hero Natty Bumppo prides himself on his English ancestry, while Tolkien recorded an early devotion to Red Indians, bows and arrows and forests' ('On Fairy Stories' in Reader, p. 63)'

Tolkien's sources: the True Tradition, The Road to Middle-Earth, T. Shippey

That's quite general however. And I know nothing about Native American hair styles in any case. Since posting that quote about Idril I've read a decent chunk of the Kalevala, but so far I can find no reference, with respect to a wedding [plenty of references to braids in general however] to echo Tolkien's description here. And even if I did, again it might only serve as a 'possible' inspiration in any event.

Anyway, sourcing Tolkien's inspiration is tricky! Despite Shippey's chapter title [the 'true tradition']

[Lissë]

Thanks again! You're a real scholar! May I ask how braids are described in the Kalevala? Primary World sources are the published works?