*A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin*

[Findegil]

All quotes by Aiwendil:

however, the old votes of the members who are still active when the new vote takes place do get taken into consideration when determining the relative weighting of old and new votes

Right and that is how I wanted it.

but the principle you propose sounds to me as though it is saying that the votes of those who are still currently active are subtracted before calculating the weighting.

So it is still badly formulated.

But actually, that may be the better way to do it.

I don't agree. My idea was to give the old votes of now inactive members a slightly lesser wieght, since they did not hear the new arguments. The number of the still active members now revoting seems to me a good indicator of how much more wieght a new vote should have. The idea of that was if none of the old voters would still be active old and new voting should have equal weight, since none of new voters would have heared and consider the old arguments 'live', so with the possibility of requestioning and discussion. And on the other hand if all old voters would still be active the old votes would all be retaken. Anyway a still active member would re-tack a vote with the old weight and give one with the new wieght.

With your propose a single voter of old now inactive would become a very high weight.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Okay, you make a good argument. How about this:

c. A decision made by voting may be changed if a new counting of old and new votes would alter the outcome or, if the active membership has changed drastically and previously unconsidered arguments on the subject have been made, by a calculation system in which both old and new votes are counted, with the new votes weighted so that their sum is equal to the total number of old votes, with the old votes of those members who are also casting new votes counted for the purpose of determining the weighting but not counted in determining the result.

This should replicate the behaviour you want exactly. The only slight change is that I've replaced the vague idea of active vs. inactive members with the unambiguous one of members who are casting new votes and those who are not.

[Findegil]

Perfect.

So we have done that general work. Now what does that mean for the point at hand?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I guess the first question is whether we consider the agreement by you, me, and Maedhros on the issue of Ulmo's counsel to have been a vote or a unanimous consensus. No official vote was taken, and we all found the solution adopted to be acceptable, but it was fairly clear that you preferred to include the counsel of war while Maedhros and I preferred not to.

But that might not actually matter. If we consider it a unanimous agreement, then according to the new principle, that can only be changed by a new unanimous agreement (and only if new arguments have been brought forward). If we consider it a vote, then it can be changed if a count of old and new votes would produce a different result, but unless I'm mistaken a count of old and new votes would actually result in a tie: switch me from the 'exclude' to the 'include' column, but add Gondowe to the 'exclude' column, making it 2-2. (Incidentally, I just realized that we didn't make it clear whether the old votes of members who are voting again still count in this case, but I assumed they would not). It seems to me that in the case of such a tie, the old decision would stand.

[gondowe]

Hello again both fellows, I've been very busy. I agree with what you decided about the votes.

One thing apart from the matter we were discussing. Now, I don't know if you already received the last Vinyar Tengwar. Its about a Sindarin text "The Turin Wrapper". There is one sentence we could introduce at the beginning; is related to Rían telling Tuor her fears (like a thought, not as dialogue, rhetorical) after the Nirnaeth (the treason of the Easterlings) and before giving him to the Grey Elves:
"And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all [?the earth/hands/hearts] of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be [?opposed/?silent] to us.
The words in brackets are those with a hard lecture/transcription, but I think is very plausible like this:
"And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us." or
"And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the hearts of the dwarves and of the Elves will be silent to us."

Could we consider the sentence to introduce in the text in some way in the second paragraph?

What do you think?

Greetings

[Findegil]

Okay first the easy matter: As we have made up our rules the decission about Ulmo asking Turgon to go to war is done. Since we already observed in the first discussion that it might be the saver way to let this element out, we are at least on the save side.

For me it seems that we have with this setteled down all points brought up by Aiwendil.

Now to the more arcane matter of the nice Vinyar Tengwar sentence: As much as I agree with Gondowe that it would be nice to include that reflection on the treason of the Easterlings, I think that the actual act of introduction might be impossibly difficult under our rules. I have VT 50 at home but not at hand in the moment. I did not yet read it, but will do (at least in part) this evening. I hope that I find some more material to work with, but if it is only that blanc sentence we have, then our editing would have to be very free, like this:

... There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.
And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth,FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 /told her what he did know about that battle. So he revaled the treason of the Easterlings./ And said Rían to Tuor: 'What{what} have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.'/
And at the end Annael/ said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
Therefore Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...

I suppose the sentence is realy in some mode of elvish script and probably in one of the earlier elvish lenguages as well. So we might consider to enter it in this form and provide a translation.
I will come back on this matter as soon as I have VT 50 in hand.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I also have VT50 but haven't read it yet. I agree with Findegil that it may be impossible to incorporate it, since there is no very natural place to insert it into the text. The suggestion of putting it in the second paragraph is probably the best we could do, but we still have to invent a sentence about the news of the treachery of the Easterlings, as in Findegil's attempt.