Melian among the maia

[Galadriel55]

I think that Melian's power is much greater than simply resisting Ungoliant shows. Consider this quote, found in both The Sil and COH:

Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who has been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, and perceiving more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest of them feared, save Melian the Queen? To her often the thought of Morgoth reached out, and there was foiled.

Before this quote, I would look at Melian as a powerful person but not someone who really has or uses the full potential. This quote, on the other hand, is like an eye opener to Melian's true power. She doesn't only create a wall of disorientation around her kingdom or keep Ungoliant away, she also continuously defeats Morgoth in a mind battle!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I would look at Melian as a powerful person but not someone who really has or uses the full potential. This quote, on the other hand, is like an eye opener to Melian's true power. She doesn't only create a wall of disorientation around her kingdom or keep Ungoliant away, she also continuously defeats Morgoth in a mind battle!

This to me is a very close parallel to the situation between Galadriel and Sauron in the Third Age.

Galadiel too had a forested "fortress", and continually frustrated the attempts of Sauron to mentally probe for weakness and information. Since Galadriel had been a confidant of Melian's, I guess she got a few pointers on resisting evil in the bargain.

[Aganzir]

It is beyond me why such a powerful Maia would use her powers to seduce Thingol of all people. Sheesh!

Anyway, if the gods would leave their business, and the birds of Valinor their mirth, and the fountains cease to flow when she sang in Lórien, she can't be a completely ordinary Maia.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It is beyond me why such a powerful Maia would use her powers to seduce Thingol of all people. Sheesh!

Seduction implies an active part one takes on another and has a negative connotation. Thingol just ran into her while she was doing her thing in the forest and he even walked up to her and took her hand. It was love at first sight for both of them, and first sight was sure long lasting, "they STOOD THUS while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew TALL and DARK before they spoke any word." [Sil, p. 58]

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Seduction implies an active part one takes on another and has a negative connotation. Thingol just ran into her while she was doing her thing in the forest and he even walked up to her and took her hand. It was love at first sight for both of them, and first sight was sure long lasting, "they STOOD THUS while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew TALL and DARK before they spoke any word." [Sil, p. 58]

It seems clear that the Thingol/Melian pairing was something, like the later finding of the One Ring by Bilbo Baggins, that was meant to occur. From that union came Lúthien Tinúviel, who played such a major role in not only the history of the First Age, but whose existence had an impact all the way to the time of the War of the Ring.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It seems clear that the Thingol/Melian pairing was something, like the later finding of the One Ring by Bilbo Baggins, that was meant to occur. From that union came Lúthien Tinúviel, who played such a major role in not only the history of the First Age, but whose existence had an impact all the way to the time of the War of the Ring.

## If it was "meant to occur", that would make a lot of sense: the union between them would then be an example of the pattern of unions between spouses of different kinds, in which the female is always of a nobler/higher "kind" than the male. The pattern as a whole does not begin with Luthien & Beren. Instead it would be:

Melian - Thingol
Luthien - Beren
Idril - Tuor
Arwen - Aragorn

(IMHO, this pattern of the higher marrying the lower can be seen elsewhere.) Which makes one wonder what would have happened if the Sons of Feanor had not killed Dior the Fair - his death may have been a far greater disaster than appears on the surface; he may not be as minor as the space he occupies in the Sil might suggest.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Seduction implies an active part one takes on another and has a negative connotation.

For me anything to do with Thingol has a negative connotation. And yes I know, I just couldn't resist the temptation to spread some Thingol hate. I need to stop before I become old and bitter.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Which makes one wonder what would have happened if the Sons of Feanor had not killed Dior the Fair - his death may have been a far greater disaster than appears on the surface; he may not be as minor as the space he occupies in the Sil might suggest.

I'm afraid I don't quite follow you here - can you explain?

Originally Posted by Saurondil

(IMHO, this pattern of the higher marrying the lower can be seen elsewhere.)

Hey cool! Correct me if this is just an easy stereotype I've accepted without thinking, but I seem to recall it was more typical of men than of women to marry lower in European history. Which makes the fact that with Tolkien it's the other way round... something. I wonder if it's been researched. (Yes, you can tell I finished the first draft of my thesis today.) Anyway sorry, these are late night ramblings.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that Melian's power is much greater than simply resisting Ungoliant shows. Consider this quote, found in both The Sil and COH:

Quote:

Before this quote, I would look at Melian as a powerful person but not someone who really has or uses the full potential. This quote, on the other hand, is like an eye opener to Melian's true power. She doesn't only create a wall of disorientation around her kingdom or keep Ungoliant away, she also continuously defeats Morgoth in a mind battle!

It seems to me that similar to Balrogs, who possessed right weapons to fight against Ungoliant, Melian was endowed with specific mental ability to penetrate Morgoth's thought and to prevent him from reading her own mind - despite the fact that his overall might was greater and he had many other capacities in which Melian could hardly compete (such as shaping landscapes). Still it seems she was very close to Sauron as one of the mightiest maiar.

There is also a feel that if a great power stayed in the same place for a long time in Tolkien's universe, it could achieve a tremendous level of control over the territory - some kind of symbiosis, so the place also contributed into the enhancement of the power. Valar in Aman, High Elves and Elrond with his Ring in Rivendell, Galadriel in Lorien, Sauron in Mordor, Saruman in Isengard, Balrog in Moria, Bombadil in his "country", Radagast in south Mirkwood and, may be even Gandalf in the Shire demonstrate such effect. Some disadvantage is that localising powers, a great spirit could often loose his/her interest and influence in everything beyond. Sauron and Gandalf, each in his own way, were able to overcome such limitations.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

It seems to me that similar to Balrogs, who possessed right weapons to fight against Ungoliant, Melian was endowed with specific mental ability to penetrate Morgoth's thought and to prevent him from reading her own mind - despite the fact that his overall might was greater and he had many other capacities in which Melian could hardly compete (such as shaping landscapes). Still it seems she was very close to Sauron as one of the mightiest maiar.

Again I see a parallel in Galadriel vs. Sauron: Good more easily comprehends evil, than the reverse. Melian and Galadriel gain a fair amount of understanding of their more innately powerful adversaries, while the latter remain relatively blind.

Originally Posted by Sarumian

There is also a feel that if a great power stayed in the same place for a long time in Tolkien's universe, it could achieve a tremendous level of control over the territory - some kind of symbiosis, so the place also contributed into the enhancement of the power. Valar in Aman, High Elves and Elrond with his Ring in Rivendell, Galadriel in Lorien, Sauron in Mordor, Saruman in Isengard, Balrog in Moria, Bombadil in his "country", Radagast in south Mirkwood and, may be even Gandalf in the Shire demonstrate such effect. Some disadvantage is that localising powers, a great spirit could often loose his/her interest and influence in everything beyond. Sauron and Gandalf, each in his own way, were able to overcome such limitations.

Though Gandalf took a special interest in the Shire, and visited it somewhat regularly, I don't think one can say it was any sort of "fortress" of his. The North in general was his province. The "power" in the area was clearly Bombadil, who took your theory of localization to its extreme. The Old Forest and the Barrow-downs certainly recognized him as what Goldberry called "the Master". Perhaps Bombadil was there indeed to safeguard the Shire in preparation for its future importance in conjunction with the Ring. Gandalf could have recognized that, and maybe that accounts for his visiting Tom after Sauron's defeat: the "rolling-stone" and the "moss-gatherer", two opposite cogs in a machine working for a common goal?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Again I see a parallel in Galadriel vs. Sauron: Good more easily comprehends evil, than the reverse. Melian and Galadriel gain a fair amount of understanding of their more innately powerful adversaries, while the latter remain relatively blind.

Given how often this is the case, it's interesting that at the highest level the opposite was true, by which I mean the case of Manwë in judgement of Melkor: "For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever." (The Silmarillion p.65-66)
Of course by a later time in the First Age Morgoth's ability to conceal his thoughts from others may have been diminished. However, considering that Manwë was "free from evil" does the insight of characters like Melian convey a reduced freedom from evil with a "know thine enemy" connotation? But I suppose another parallel with Galadriel might be useful; she knew evil but rejected it, and perhaps knowing evil was not always a bad thing when it came to fighting evil, as long as it didn't go too far (as in the case of Saruman). That would seem to fit with Professor Tolkien's recurring theme that evil ultimately contributes to good, that Arda Healed would be greater than Arda Unmarred for having been Marred.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Given how often this is the case, it's interesting that at the highest level the opposite was true, by which I mean the case of Manwë in judgement of Melkor: "For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever." (The Silmarillion p.65-66)

Maybe Manwë's innocence may be attributed to the simple fact that Morgoth was the primordial evil in Arda, the "test case", as it were.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

However, considering that Manwë was "free from evil" does the insight of characters like Melian convey a reduced freedom from evil with a "know thine enemy" connotation? But I suppose another parallel with Galadriel might be useful; she knew evil but rejected it, and perhaps knowing evil was not always a bad thing when it came to fighting evil, as long as it didn't go too far (as in the case of Saruman).

One wonders if Melian had ever been subjected to any sort of temptation along the lines of Galadriel's desire of the Ring. Being truly "embodied" and thus chained to the earth as Morgoth, Sauron, and later, the Istari, I wouldn't think she would have been immune from evil thoughts; merely she apparently possessed enough wisdom and will to spurn them.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

That would seem to fit with Professor Tolkien's recurring theme that evil ultimately contributes to good, that Arda Healed would be greater than Arda Unmarred for having been Marred.

That seems an echo of Frodo's words to Sam just before Frodo's departure from the Grey Havens.

....you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone, so that people will remember the Great Danger, and so love their beloved land all the more.

Those who have personally experienced troubles have more appreciation for what they have than those who have not. On that score, the Exiled Noldor should have been happier and more content in Aman after their return than the Vanyar, who did not endure the pains and turmoils of Middle-earth.