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#1 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Black Country, West Midlands
Posts: 130
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"...were they laughing in their sleeves at him all the time? That is the effect that dragon-talk has on the inexperienced... Smaug had rather an overwhelming personality."
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We see everything from behind, and it looks brutal. That is not a tree, but the back of a tree ...everything is stooping and hiding a face. ~ G.K. Chesterton |
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#2 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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![]() But I guess all this is a bit outside the scope of this thread...
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#3 | ||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Ultimately yes, his actions only echo what Morgoth and Sauron did before him, as in Arda, it is not acceptable to challenge or claim ownership of Light. But he still tries, and he tries something a little different. This is why I have nicknamed it Saruman's 'third way' - he does not see it as good or evil, it is another path to him. But it is also a slightly different approach to those taken by both Morgoth and Sauron. I like the thought that just as Light and light refract and splinter, so the attempts by those on the side of evil in Arda also refract - their works shatter, and with each new attempt to gain control, their efforts grow ever weaker.
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#4 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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To me this deconstruction of the light is representative of villainous folly in general in Arda: the idea that finite, incarnate beings exerting their limited power over individual constituents of something to which they were themselves internal and a part were somehow capable of turning the ultimate control away from the external, infinite authority - it's completely delusional. They were part of the system; the system can't change itself. Only the person on the outside, Eru, has that power. Breaking things down gives the illusion, however, that they do have that power; the Shadow confounded itself just as readily as its enemies. This is how I read the breaking of the White light. That being said, thank you for your insights, this has been an extremely illuminating (pun intended or not, your choice) discussion! |
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#5 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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This is a bit tangential, but I am wondering if, in choosing his new appearance, Saruman had also directly violated one of the cardinal laws of the Istari (the one about not revealing their nature") Based on the way it is described I have always assumed that Saruman's "many hued robe" would be what we would call iridescent. Merely putting muticolored threads next to each other would not accomplish the effect being desrcribed (if they were random, the robe would appear grey or black from a distance, not white (because of the way pigments work versus light). If they were arrayed in spectrum order, you might get gradients of color if the bands were narrow enough but it wouln't change color like described (and from a distance, still could not be mistaken for white). So an iridescent robe (or a robe make of iridescent threads) would seem to be the logical choice. However, making iridescent threads would, I imagine. likey be beyond the tech of ME (unless it is a twisted version of the craft the elves use to make thier camoflague cloaks) The ONLY way I can see someone doing it is through the use of "magic"/ Valarian skills not known in ME, which would violate the rule. Even if the method is one Saruman came up with himself, showing himself with an appearance including something that the other people of ME literally COULDN'T do would probably be a no-no under the rule.
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#6 | ||
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
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A couple of possibly relevant quotes :
Gandalf's explanation has been alluded to above- Quote:
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I wonder... exactly when Saruman forged his ring (or rings?) is not told. Nor is his reason for risking the use of the Palantir at that time. Putting two and two together, perhaps Saruman's ring gave him the over-confidence to believe that he could withstand Sauron in a Palantir encouter, or maybe I've made two and two equal five! Another possible Saruman ring influence: Theoden. Doesn't it seem a little unnatural that Grima Wormtongue, roundly hated by all and sundry in Theoden's court, could exert such influence over the King? Who after all seems a straightforward and noble character underneath.
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Rumil of Coedhirion |
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#7 | |||||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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![]() Anyway...I think in essence we agree on the end result of all these efforts to capture, corrupt or break Light in Middle-earth, it's clearly not possible to ultimately take control and 'beat' Eru at his own game. Eru is after all omnipotent and more than willing to do some smiting, and if plans collapse before it gets to that stage then he is still capable of showing his displeasure (as we see with Saruman's fea being turned away at the end of The Return of the King). What's interesting is why characters like Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman think they can beat Eru. We might differ a bit here? Quote:
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I think it's fair enough that Saruman might think the white Light can be used, after all there are examples of crafts of Light like the Silmarils. But Saruman does try to improve on Light - I don't think he does seek to control it in any way, more to use it. If I can use an analogy, where Morgoth/Sauron were more like dabblers in medieval dark arts, Saruman is more like a scientist dabbling in some very morally grey areas. Not sure if that works but never mind.... ![]() Quote:
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#8 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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Once again Saruman was a facsimile of Sauron, his superior in Evil. Saruman lacked the opportunity to embrace Darkness, but the breaking of the Light was in my view a beginning: he tries to break down the Light to understand it, which to me is still an act of possession, like Morgoth's theft of the Silmarils or, maybe even more appropriately, Fėanor's withholding of them. Saruman lacked the time or opportunity (or perhaps the power) to become a full-blown Dark Lord but I see the breaking of the Light as an initial phase. I'm not sure when Saruman "uses" the Light: to me its deconstruction comes back to this threefold purpose: "Knowledge, Rule, Order". The greater his lore, the greater his power, the greater his power the more secure his order. It seems to me very much like Sauron's purpose with the forging of the Rings, just on a lesser scale which never comes to fruition. In Théoden's words, "I perceive only a finger of the claw of Mordor." Quote:
This seems to me to be awfully similar to Saruman's sentiments: "There is no help left in Elves or dying Nśmenor". Sauron's efforts at rehabilitation were predicated on the notion that the Valar no longer cared and that therefore it was 'up to him' to set things right in the East; later this assumption of apathy was extended to God Himself. Saruman similarly abandons his mission, believing that, contrary to the Valar's instructions, it was the place of higher beings to order the world of Men, but he shows up very late in the scheme of things and doesn't do a very good job even of being a new Enemy. He doesn't even get as far as Darkness; he simply breaks a White Light into Many Colours. The "Many Colours" do emphasise his ambiguity, however, which is I think what makes him interesting, as well as his role as a foil to both Gandalf and Sauron. Maybe instead of being on a "third way" I more see him as a kind of in-betweener. While I've always considered a lack of humility to be one of his main failings, I've often wondered that the Valar didn't help things much. First he was burdened with Radagast, whom he apparently disliked from the start, and then despite being appointed head of the Order this is undermined before they've even left Valinor by Varda's rather unsubtle remark that Gandalf is "not the third." Obviously Saruman, a servant of the Valar and by extension of Eru, should have been able to deal with this, and obviously no one but he can be blamed for his own failure and fall, but I really can't help shake the impression that this whole 'Wizard plan' on the part of the Lords of the West was not implemented as well as it could have been. I suppose that's why it took Eru's intervention to see it to any kind of fruition. |
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#9 | |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
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He wrote in one of his Letters (not with my books so don't have the exact ref or quote at the moment), discussing Gandalf's being "sent back until his task was completed", to the effect that
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#10 | |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2
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Although in all cases things turned out badly, there is sympathy (and sometimes even admiration) for the rebels. |
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#11 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Black Country, West Midlands
Posts: 130
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In the real war the victorious powers plundered many things from the defeated Germany, most well known are V2 rocket technology and the research of Josef Mengele. Both these fields produced positive and negative results in the form of the space race vs the nuclear arms race, and insights into genetics vs genetic engineering. The benefits are with us still, as are the fears of the abuses, but one might say that good intentions make the Sarumans of our world brave or heroic, since they acheived what the morally restrained could not ("conscience doth make cowards of us all". as Hamlet says). Saruman's aims justify his means, in his own eyes at least. By avoiding making LotR an allegory, Tolkien denies us the ability to point to any one figure or event in history and make them a scapegoat; as if to say "X = bad therefore I must be good." Instead, by making the books' themes "applicable", we're left with the uncomfortable questions: "Who/what does this apply to?" and "How might this apply to me?" ie. Is a man who dissassembles his bike any better than Saruman? I have dissassembled a rat so am I any better then Saruman? Does the fact that I did this as an obligatory part of studying 'A' level Biology provide me with justification? The power of Saruman's (and Smaug's) Voice lies in saying things that are valid; but these things only work on those who are unprepared, who have not already decided where to draw the line they will not cross. Gandalf gave Saruman the opportunity to redraw his lines (also a theme of the recent Dr Whos), on the terms that he lay aside his staff and the keys to Orthanc until he'd proved himself trustworthy. He declined and so lost his staff, but in this Gandalf appears to have made a similar mistake to that of Hama at the doors of Edoras. Where Hama failed to part Gandalf from his staff, Gandalf failed to part Saruman from his ring. He knew it existed, so was this an oversight or would removing his ring have had some effect Gandalf would deem undesirable?
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We see everything from behind, and it looks brutal. That is not a tree, but the back of a tree ...everything is stooping and hiding a face. ~ G.K. Chesterton |
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#12 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 129
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It seems to me that Gandalf never considered Saruman's ring to be of big significance, as he did not care about it after Saruman's defeat. He would have never left Sauron with The Ring on his own in Barad Dur in similar circumstances, I am sure.
Gandalf might consider Saruman's ring as a lesser one, which was able to amplify Saruman's senses and also his control over his army or to make him invincible in Orthanc. He could also think that with the demise of The One Saruman's ring looses its power. It looks at least probable if Saruman's ring was made with the use of the same knowledge that created older rings of power. Can we guess that the failure of Saruman's ring was the reason why he decided to leave Orthanc one day? But we can also make up a different story. What if Saruman's ring was a ring of power, much lesser than The One but not attached to Sauron's and elven stock, so the Wielders of The Three had no true knowledge about it. Lalwendė's reasoning gave me an idea that if Sauron's goal was craft, evil and weird indeed, but very personal in its core, Saruman was the Spirit of Technology. Apparently, he built this main skill and interest into his ring and thus it had not failed after Sauron's end but functioned in a pretty different way. Shall we imagine it was initially weak but was able to accumulate its strength in the way technology establishes its power over people (iPhone and iCloud, for instance ![]() Last edited by Sarumian; 02-06-2013 at 11:27 AM. |
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