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Old 01-26-2013, 10:51 AM   #1
Ardent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
... Certainly you wouldn't expect Saruman to say things to the effect of "look Gandalf, I have a new handbag."
...
Now there's a picture:

With a ring on his finger
And bells on his toes
Saruman has many coloured makeup wherever he goes.

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Old 01-26-2013, 01:35 PM   #2
cellurdur
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Saruman's ring was not on the level of one of the Great Rings and maybe not even the Lesser ones, but it must have had some power. Saruman boast how he is Saurman the 'ring maker'. Tolkien in one of his letters expresses how if his story was allegorical then Saruman would have been able to find the missing links in Mordor and create his own One Ring. So we can see he had enough lore to create a ring, but was missing some key bits of information to really make a Great Ring.
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Old 01-26-2013, 03:04 PM   #3
Lalwendė
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Ring

Saruman's Ring was no mere ornament.

He studied and worked long and hard to craft it, and knowing just what we do of Saruman's personality and pride, do you think he would boast to Gandalf of having crafted a useless ornament?

My opinion is that all of the Rings of power (which shall be capitalised from now on in this post) in some way worked on the hroa/fea and worked with sanwe. Anyone who doesn't know what these are - hroa/fea roughly corresponds to body/soul and sanwe is thought transference. Rather a lot about this can be found in a quite obscure essay by Tolkien that was published by an organisation who do work on his created languages. The Rings work on Men/mortals to break down the barrier of the hroa in particular - and in some way, the One may also have this effect on Sauron himself, who has been incarnated for far too long and is hence in a very vulnerable hroa.

Saruman will obviously have faced this problem in crafting his own Ring. Perhaps he managed to get over this in some way...and I have an idea how.

Another of my thoughts is that Light is held as divine in Arda, and we know that Saruman tried to 'break' the Light to see what it was made from. Thus, he becomes Saruman of Many Colours. It is quite possible that he sought this third way of Light breaking (as opposed to following a Light or Dark path) as some means of avoiding the risk Sauron took. Of course, if he did, then it ultimately failed as he was unbodied at Hobbiton.

It's also entirely possible for another One Ring to be made. A different one, yes, but very much possible, if one skilled enough had the know-how.

I'll come back to this because I want to watch some Plantagenets on telly, but meanwhile here's some of my old ramblings touching on this, which have some good quotes (I've nto just posted them because I can't be bothered ):

Rings of Power and Osanwe-kenta

The Mystery of Light
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:34 PM   #4
Ozban
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Concerning Saruman's Ring. (and I should state, that I'm no expert on the matter, unlike Legate, whom I know to be a fan of this particular aspect of Ring-lore)

When I take into account Norse Mythology, which I hope we can all accept as major inspiration in Tolkien's work. I can not to point few points. I do have no proofs on my claims, but I think they should be quite easy to find or follow. It all is only about interpretation and what isn't nowadays?

First: We all (hope this doesn't insult anyone), and I consider this heritage of 'western-society', some wedding rituals (it's meaning half forgotten through the ages) and myths, that we all know by hearth (although deeper layers aren't known to anyone, save lucky, or not, few) think of ring as "essence condensed into a little precious". I'd argue, that in the aforementioned Mythology (especially Norse, but lets look at Prometheus and a Ring...) was The Ring exactly opposite. It represented "Will imposed onto the whole world". Think of Andvari's ring. Little jewel was only the means of the most powerful curse ever known by the gods or men. Malevolence condensed into single, "simple" piece of metal. And was the metal so important in presisely this shape? The desire of Andvari, his vengeance and hatered were demonstrated just by this simple oranment.

Was 'The One Ring' any different? Wasn't it curse possesing Arda made solid? Fate of the world forged? One that can not be broken, save by some "nearly" impossible tasks? (Shall we look at LotR as 'mostly' symbolic quest? I stand by this.)

But the Ring is much more symbolical. Making the Ring is not some 'hobby'. How many managed in the whole history of Arda? Three? Celebrimbor, Sauron and Saruman? (Correct me here if, I'm not really sure) Ring-lore is not a thing to be simply learned. Would it so, why wouldn't 'all the mighty' (say Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan) forge their own rings? Those were only elves, but still a representative sample, right? Should I add Thranduil? Durin? Guess not.

Logic, is what I'm counting on here, wrong perhaps, especially when I argue about the whole symbolicity of T's works. Let us now, for the sake of argument, consider It can not be learned, but three (or more) manged still to do so.

Was it question of personal power? Yes, if we consider Sauron. (He was, by far, I think so, one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth) Possibly, if we consider Celebrimbor. (Well, really, Survived the whole First Age (most of it?), took part in all the events of War of Wrath and after. He could have been easily better/stronger (so imprecise words ) than any elf or man of his age. Consider his heritage - his gran'dad. ) But with Saruman it is a clincher. Could he, in his "human/wizard/whateverhewas" form be more powerful than Galadriel (won't go through her biograpgy! Don't have a lifetime to spare)? Celebrimbor(The same!)? Glorfindel (do all the names begin with G?)? Elrond (finally!)? My answer is No!

Argue now. We can debate this forever. But bear with me just a second longer.

I argue, that capability of forging a ring is closely connected to the desire to "impose oneselve's will upon the World"! It is a character and ambitions manifested, so that they can affect all of creation.

Think of Narya. I believe, that on more than one account it was related to Hope! Unless I'm gravely mistaken Hope is held in very high (that is possibly a understatement) regard by christians. And our author was such. This doesn't relly fit in here... What I wanted to say, is that 'The Ring of Fire' was emotion made solid. Or desire made solid? If so, couldn't other be made in such manner?

Therefore:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghanberryghan View Post
"'There is something strange at work in this land. I distrust the silence. I distrust even the pale Moon. The stars are faint; and I am weary as I have seldom been before, weary as no Ranger should be with a clear trail to follow. There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb.'
'Truly!' said Legolas. 'That I have known since first we came down from the Emyn Muil. For the will is not behind us but before us.' He pointed away over the land of Rohan into the darkling West under the sickle moon.
'Saruman!' muttered Aragorn. 'But he shall not turn us back! Halt we must once more; for, see! even the Moon is falling into gathering cloud. But north lies our road between down and fen when day returns.
'"
Yes, my view of Saruman, both admiring (strike that) and Dim (very, very dim) is, that where Sauron was pure malevolence and evil. Saruman is "devil's advocate". He is a spirit of doubt. Self-doubt by which the whole humanity suffers. (Symbolicism again...) Aragorn (or Theoden?) is the antagonist of Saruman, whereas Gandalf and Frodo are the ones to get Sauron to his knees.

Therefore I conclude, that the passage cited is indeed 'Saruman's will'. His ability to confuse, befuddle mind of human beings projected. And to invoke doubt in their / our hearts, which they / we luckily withstood and conquered.

Hope this post helps some. Apologies for it's lenght.

Tired now. Good night. Corrections to follow tomorrow.
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