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#1 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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It begs the question of whether Volo was their blocked target, ie were they after him from the start, or was it something from yesterNight only that painted him as a threat? Being in search of a trailless kill or one that's difficult to lynch doesn't seem to apply in this case.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#2 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Quote:
I'm at it right now, but would like some others to give their eye on it as well.
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
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#3 |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
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Well, so it wasn't Nogrod, as I thought early yesterDay, or Kath, as I thought later yesterDay. Maybe not having to suspect everyone of cobblerism will make things a bit easier.
Nog - I thought he was a seer-dreamed wolf, which didn't make sense by the end of the day, though he still looked suspicious to me. |
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#4 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Hilarious Lottie.
![]() Apologies about yesterday, I was blindsided with whole day becoming occupied. There still a good chunk of Day 2 I need to read, but I've thoroughly digested Day 1 and here's what I've gotten up to in terms of analysis (there will be Day 1 and 2 analysis on everyone who is still alive). I'm not going to quote every post or note written because that would be really extraneous...don't think anyone wants to read "____ was suspicious of ____ in post #__ because of _______ reasons." If requested I'll provide the relevant posts and quotes. Begining with Pom since she just has 1 day and the rest will be in order according to the Mod list *Also note not completely getting through Day 2 yet I very well might be repeating what others have already brought up yesterday, but you'll just have to deal with it.* Pom Day 1 Analysis: The important point to keep in mind is at this point Pom had no votes, and she leaves probably not even thinking she’s in danger of being lynched. It was only after she leaves and her peculiar #103 that gets the suspicion and votes going against her. So basically everything she says, if looked at from the wizard’s bias of Pom knows who’s innocent and her other mates, can be looked at as she’s not stating anything in an attempt to save herself. For instance in #92, she says she’s inclined to think between the Gil and Nerwen battle both are innocent. I’ve used this tactic many many times as a wolf. When the inevitable battle between two people occur on Day 1, and already having the knowledge both are innocent, throwing out a “both are probably just innocents fighting” makes one look better if it just so happens one of them winds up getting lynched. If it’s an argument between a wolf-mate and an innocent, I don’t recall every purposefully drawing attention to the matter. I suppose it’s possible, because Pom would likely act a different baddie than myself, but I saw #92 and chuckled with the hindsight bias of finding out Pom’s guilt and I’ve used the same tactic before to look all smart and reasonable. “These two knuckleheads arguing are probably both innocent.” And if one winds up getting the other lynched, just an easy tactic to make it look like you've made a wise, substantial point about something. And #103 the infamous “keep an eye on the Cop voters” it’s not so much that part which was interesting and led to the wizard getting lynched. It’s her reaction to McCaber’s that makes McCaber look innocent. She’s not making these posts with any worry that she will wind up getting lynched Day 1, so why suddenly draw attention to McCaber’s vote as one that looks to be jumping onto a bandwagon, when interestingly enough, Pom does the same? It’s funny, Rikae was the one who originally pointed out unease about Cop (in 66), based on a recap of banter is really about as useful as banter itself. I said in #70 I didn’t like the vote, not because of the earliness of it, but I didn’t understand what made my banter more gut-feeling bad than the rest (something that Nerwen also questioned in Post #57). Pom in 92, Rikae 93 and McCaber 94 all say the basic point about not liking Cop’s vote for me (woah that‘s like an elite army of troll guards to my defense :-/). If anything, Pom was looking like an opportunistic bandwagoner along with McCaber. But Pom had a slightly higher ground to stand on as her post came in first out of the 3. So why would a guilty Pom point this out in #103 if McCaber was a wizard mate? ----- Greenie Day 1 analysis - Nothing obviously alarming from Day 1, a normal, methodical Greenie. It’s her actions and end result that is suspect. #110 her only comment about Pom’s post 103 is “she’s got some nerve saying it.” In #118 it’s a semi-defense arguing it should be disregarded if she was joking, and seen hypocritical if she was serious, but it really doesn’t point to anything. And spends most of her Day 1 posts to steer focus on McCaber’s opportunistic vote against Cop, and not on Pom’s same opportunistic reasons. Given Pom’s allegiance, and not knowing McCaber’s, this does look like a subtle, but consistant effort to divert focus off Pom’s vote and peculiar statement onto McCaber. Day 2 analysis - #201 Agrees with Nerwen’s point: Quote:
![]() Definitely suspicious of Greenie’s actions. In #222 Greenie makes a sudden turn to feeling good about McCaber saying he made a "shrewd point" that Rikae was trying to turn focus on him and away from Pom. When interestly enough, Greenie was doing the same, she gave reasoned defenses for Pom’s post in #110, while also putting the focus on McCaber’s opportunistic looking vote. ----- Forgot Bane only has 1 day of analysis to look at too: Aside from not voting at all, despite giving Pom as his #1 suspect, looks fairly good so far. Thought there would be more to analyze and go off of for Day 2, but doesn’t show up. Hopefully he does today. Undetermined, but leaning innocent/nothing alarming. He says Pom's post 103 looks incongruous there is an exchange with Greenie about this point, so I'd like to hear what Bane thinks about Greenie now that we know Pom's role. ----- Brinn Day 1 analysis - Didn’t agree with her Day 1 vote for Nerwen, but it wasn’t as suspicious looking as I originally thought. It should be known it’s hard to determine when the banter should end and more substantive posts begin. When it’s a fairly straight forward game, without much in terms of new roles and strategy to consider, all you can pretty much say is IC and banter. There’s nothing substantive to say, until some votes start coming in and you can clearly see “ok where is there a bandwagon starting? Does it look opportunistic or justified?…etc.” Banter tends to weed itself out without the prodding of other members “ok folks we’re at post #42 IC and banter time is up.” Having said that, it seems like an honest philosophical difference about Day 1, since starting out without any clues and yet having to vote early, like Brinn had to, you’re really in the dark with only banter to rely on. Day 2 analysis - Reasoning looks innocent and honest (see primarily Post 187). Disagree about some of those she seems to be trusting at the moment (Greenie), and therefore I’m not going to completely trust her findings, but gives clear insight and opinion on everyone. Makes it easy to see where she stands on everyone. ---- Time to finish the rest of this large crowd....
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Fenris Penguin
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#5 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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About Volocobbler
#3 Says he will start tasting us trolls to see who tastes like a Wizer… also says “I'll go back to sleep though if I can find which way the cave goes deeper and which is the way back to the entrence. I never know. But I like waking up late in the night”. So faking a seer? I mean you could read that in the way of him hinting at being a seer now that you look at it. Well, a reason for a close-reading Wizard to get suspicious of him anyway (even if I do wonder about Volo’s intention here). #55 Questions McCaber’s use of the word “suspicious” in post #29 and says they felt somewhat exaggerated. #72 Defends Kath quite clearly: “The case with Kath seems too harsh… currently no other interpretation but troll feels based enough to me. Until further notice that is”. #108 Backtracks on Kath. Says Morsul is either fishy or thoughtless. Both two he explains by their posts. Then says of Nerwen she’s “cold” more based on gut. Sympathizes Gil and hopes him to stay around. Explains his own inactivity… #126 Asks Brinn why she thinks Rikae looks genuine. Continues with suspecting Rikae saying he’s “clearly looking more closely at Rikae”. #132 Vote-tally. Says: “Nerwen I'm not sure about, but Pom feels more genuine (although I haven't gone through her posts as carefully), McCaber is more on the naughty side compared to the others”. #137 “Ok, Nerwen is the one I find the most suspicious of those who have votes and will vote for her to save McCaber if I can't agree with someone on a more suspicious character. Due to so much submarineing, I don't feel confident about there being a Wizer in the voted lot.” #139 Votes Nerwen. With the almost infamous comment: “This is a bandwagon. McCaber and Pom are less suspicious and they're up to 3 votes, so this is to counter that. Also, lots of talk, little reasoning”. #143 Explains he had read the votes wrongly between Pom and Copper. Says Copper doesn’t look that suspicious. Day2 #205 Interesting post indeed. Starts with Copper and her not being sounding “entirely genuine”. Then he goes on saying that Nerwen broughts Cop up (and that there’s nothing incriminating in Nerwen bringing on that) and Rikae goes for it… And he decides to mention that Nerwen stays ambiguos about Cop and Rikae “diminishes her suspicion” on her, but the damage is already done and that “something smells” there. #261 Analyses people… (more of that in the next post with some thoughts about Volo as a possible seer from the POV of the wolves) #264 Votes Ozban as Morsul "feels innocent".
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
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#6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,448
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Well at least the cobbler's gone...
Honestly hate that Oz was an ordo, ruined a good 1 day streak there. Have a feeling I'm pretty high on everyone's chopping block today... Will look into the Oz and Morsul voters... So pretty much half the players.
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Morsul the Resurrected |
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#7 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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So, why would the Wizards think of Volo as the seer?
His suggestion he will "start tasting us" combined with a talk of him "sleeping" in his first post could have been interpreted by the wolves as a seer hint (albeit a clumsy and a little bit too open one for the real seer, I'd say). But his actions at the end of D2 might be interpreted as seerish as well. He has been a long away and comes in three minutes before the DL with a full list of people and his thoughts on them. So using a lot of time before the DL with the game but not participating in the actual discussion, but preparing a kind of "testament" of his thoughts in case he is killed before this Day? Nevertheless, I do not think these two would be enough for the Wizards to think Volo was the seer. He had to get something right (or if not, then we all have been totally blind and the rest of the wolves have been receiving no attention at all as there would be no better candidates for being the seer for them but Volo with nothing correct in his thoughts...). So a third post coming soonish (I hope) to see which could be the hits Volo made... in case I'm right in the first place that the Wizards killed Volo for being the seer.
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
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#8 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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It seems Volo suspects Nerwen somewhat on D1 and even votes her, but on D2 he seems to clear her (he mentions her in a suspicious envirovement but kind of defends her at the same time) - in the end of the Day he says he feels like he has "lost his case" on her.
That would speak volumes on behalf of Nerwen's innocence if it was that the Wizards thought of him as the seer. What would have been more likely from a seer than to pick his suspected & voted-person of the Day as a dream during the next Night and then after seeing her innocent defending her openly? Then there is also Rikae with whom Volo's death looks really bad indeed... Volo seems to suspect her already on D1 (and Rikae might make a decent N1 seer-dream, at least she would be high on my agenda were I a seer) and seems even more critical of her on D2, actually comparing her to PomWizard. And what is remarkable is that he doesn't actually have a "case" to bring against Rikae but he most of the times just hints she is worth suspecting. I do see a problem with these thought combined though... Clearly a seer could not have been able to dream of both Nerwen (innocent?) and Rikae (Wizard?) both on N2 and thus the Wizards wouldn't have thought of him doing that as they would have known that to be an impossible scenario. But does that incriminate Nerwen any more (I doubt it does aka. I think her more innocent than not becasue of Volo's death), or does it free Rikae from the suspicion (I tend to think not at the moment as I could see the scenario with her being a wolf much more plausible). As for other candidates Volo suspected in the end of D2 in his tally of us all, there were Boro and Gil whom both he talks about as playing like when they are wolves. Sure it is possible the wolves just tried to get rid of someone who was not protected or who would leave as many false tracks as possible. And I'm the last to throw away that option.
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
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#9 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Triple posting... :(
So finally -and to go to sleep - a disclaimer I think is worthy of mentioning.
YesterDay I thought Rikae a little suspicious but had nothing concrete to base it on but just a slight feeling of unease (which I have on basically all of you but stronger on some than others). But then she posted her odd statement at the last seconds of the game and I went like "what?". Then reading back Volo's posting and thinking about the wolves thinking him the seer made me look at Rikae as even more suspicious. Nice, right? But then I remembered that last post she made yesterDay - and it looks like even more puzzling now... And I mean puzzling, not more suspicious. Yes, you Rikae came forwards pretty soon to kind of answer my question about what did you mean by that post (that you thought earlier Oz was a seer-dreamt wolf but had changed your mind), but what you didn't answer - and what puzzles me the most - is why you thought that was such an important piece of infromation you'd need to post it even if it went over the DL (like it actually did). Especially as you had posted comments twenty minutes before the DL but then remained silent untill the last minute - only to make that statement. I am even more puzzled by that last comment now.
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
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#10 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 344
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I'm here and will start reading, but having skimmed the update, I must echo Gil: wow. Didn't think I'd have cause to say this, but good work, wizzers! Also, I suppose that puts paid to the Cobbler-Nog theory.
Now we really have to wonder why they might have picked Volo. There's nothing obvious at first thought...One would usually guess they must have had reason to think he's the Seer, but bearing in mind that this is a big game with 3 remaining wizzards, there's always a possibility of it being some A-grade misdirection. Time to take a good look through. Even aside from the obvious reason to be happy for the wizzards gracefully handing us the Traitor Troll, I'm pleased because this is just so interesting a twist. Volo had been under such a lot of suspicion yesterDay. I'd have expected them to leave him in as a potential lynch-ee toDay. Incidentally, I don't have to vote early toDay, and can probably be here until the deadline. (I had thought I would have to vote early, but it turns out I don't have to be at work then after all. However, if I'm alive for the next two Days after, both of those will be early votes.) |
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#11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Skyrim, again.
Posts: 820
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McCaber's Patented Volalysis: Do Not Steal
Post 3: Fluff based around licking and sleeping. Post 55: Calling me out based around the use of the word "suspicious" in my post 29. Post 72: Claims he can't hear anything and doesn't suspect Kath. Post 108: Claims Kath might be the Clever Troll and says the wizards might vote as a group on day 1. Post 126: Questions Brin about Rikae, and has some opinions about the latter that I really can't figure out from the post. Textbook cobbler in that there are words and sentences, but stringing the sentences into a whole is nigh-impossible. Post 132: Vote tally Post 137: Claims Nerwen is more suspicious than me and will settle on her if no one better becomes a candidate. Post 139: Votes Nerwen while saying Pom and I are less suspicious. Post 143: Clarifies his thought position in his voting post. Post 205: Blames Nerwen and Rikae for suspecting CM on day 1. I find this post really weird and hard to see the full reasoning behind it. Again, textbook cobbler. Post 261: General impressions of everyone. Thinks Boro to be the most suspicious and says everyone else looks innocent, albeit in a backhanded way. Post 264: Votes Ozban, says Morsul looks innocent. If the wizards thought he was a seer, it was probably because of his first fluffy post and something they saw in his lists. Maybe Morsul is in fact innocent and the wizards thought that only a seer would think that. Other than that, he looked really suspicious and probably would have gotten himself lynched a few days down the road. A really weird choice of wolf kill.
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Werewolves vs. Fishmen. The battle of the century. |
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#12 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Quote:
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#13 |
Reflection of Darkness
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull.
Posts: 2,983
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Okay, I'm actually really surprised they chose to kill Volo. I thought he was looking quite suspicious from Day 1 (at least I was sort of on the right track). I wasn't the only one who suspected him, so I think it could've been possible for him to be a lynch candidate for toDay. Why not kill someone who is considered by many players to be on the innocent side based on the results of Day 1 instead, as I was guessing their first kill target would've been just that. Yes, one reason could be that they thought Volo was the seer. I'm not sure about that though; his posts don't really stand out as all that seerish to me. Another possibility is that the wizards were simply looking to confuse and misdirect us. I do wonder if a reason they chose not to kill a Pom voter is because a wizard is among them.
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Nolite te bastardes carborundorum |
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#14 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 344
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I will also do an analysis. Might take me a while, though. I'm going off to eat now.
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#15 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 344
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If it's a matter of misdirection rather than them going for Volo on Seer grounds, then it might be because there's something in Volo's posts which can send us on a wild goose chase, because they just want to cause general confusion, or because they really, really want us to forget about some line of reasoning that we were on yesterDay, and they thought killing Volo would work best at distracting us.
(And now I really will leave for a few hours.) |
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#16 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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Quote:
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#17 | ||
Reflection of Darkness
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull.
Posts: 2,983
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Quote:
Quote:
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Nolite te bastardes carborundorum |
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#18 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 344
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Volo as "Seer"
Day 1 #3 - his tasting banter could be interpreted as Seer-ish. Interestingly, in retrospect his last line there looks as if it could be him leaving a Cobbler-hint. #72 - defends Kath and says "currently no other interpretation but troll feels based enough to me". It's quite emphasised, so could easily be taken as evidence left by a Seer if Kath is innocent. #126 - questions how genuine Rikae is in response to Brin's opinion. Says "Ok, now I'm clearly looking more closely at Rikae"...and that there's "still no special genuine vibe" there. If Rikae is a wolf, the wolves might well have been worried about this post. #132 - unsure about Nerwen, thinks Pom feels more genuine, and McCaber more naughty. #137 - now wants to save McCaber and is willing to vote Nerwen to do it. This could be suspicious to wizzards if Nerwen is a wizzard, possibly, but the defence of McCaber probably wouldn't. #139 - votes Nerwen, and makes bandwagon statements. #143 - corrects some mistakes, and says that I didn't ring any alarm bells with him. In conclusion, if Day 1 contains anything that worried them, they might have assumed that he was the Seer based on: - defence of Kath (in which case she's innocent) - suspicion of Rikae (in which case she's a wizzard) - defence of McCaber (in which case he's innocent) - vote and reasoning for voting Nerwen (in which case she's a wizzard) - possibly, his opinion of me in #143 Now to Day 2 to check if any of those become more likely or there is anything new. They might have attempted to kill him the first Day and been blocked by the Insomniac Troll, or might not. Day 2 #205 - mild suspicion against me, notes Nerwen bringing attention to McCaber but says it is nothing incriminating and later says that Nerwen remains ambiguous. He continues fairly enthusiastically with suspicions about Rikae, specifically talking about how she might have strategically encouraged suspicion against me. So far he seems to be continuing the Rikae suspicions just as on Day 1. This doesn't look great for Rikae so far, but there's still more to read about. Going by the info up to #205, there's a possibility that he could have been killed to encourage a Rikae lynch...but then, wouldn't they have killed Rikae overNight if that's what they wanted? Volo was under extreme suspicion and not a bad prediction to be lynched toDay. But if Rikae is a wizzard and they thought Volo had dreamt of her, they would have little choice but to kill Volo ASAP even if it might implicate her. Now for #261 and Volo's big suspicions list. He doesn't have enough info on: Shasta, Sally. Considers some degree of innocent, however mild: Greenie, Bane, Kath (although thinks a possible Cobbler), Morsul. Unclear statement on: Brin, Inzil, Loslote. Boro - thinks something doesn't fit and he resembles wolf-Boro. Coppermirror - thinks that Pom might have genuinely tried to save me, thus making me more suspicious, and that Pom thought her vote was a safe one for her to make. Gil - thinks he resembles his wolf-self, and that Boro and Sally defended him strongly. Ends up unsure and giving Gil benefit of doubt. McCaber - has had some thoughts about but currently thinks he doesn't ring alarm bells. This could be seen as in line with the previous Day. Morsul - thinks is genuine and unlikely to be a wizer. Nerwen - waffles about her a bit. Seems to be backtracking overall, but "I have a hard time getting a read on her, but I feel like I've lost my case" makes it sound odd. Nogrod - is slightly wary of him. Ozban - "I'm somewhat surprised he got voted, since I've missed his guiltiness." Rikae - "growing more wary" of her, thinking of as Pom 2. #264 - votes Ozban as Morsul "feels innocent". Conclusions: the most obvious thread there is suspicion of Rikae. They might have thought that Rikae was the first dream, possibly the second. But on Day 1, there were also two people whom he seemed to defend: Kath and McCaber. (I could say me too, but he wavered a bit oddly about me on Day 2 despite continuing to use Rikae's suspicions of me as evidence against her.) It's by no means conclusive but it does merit a look at Rikae, especially to check on how she reacts to these accusations. So on Day 2, how does he treat Kath and McCaber? More neutrally, but still not with much suspicion. His line about McCaber could possibly be interpreted as dreaming of him the previous Night. He doesn't seem to think Ozban is looking guilty, but votes for him anyway to save Morsul, whom he thinks is innocent. If Morsul really is innocent, and Volo was also correct about one of his earlier opinions (probably on Kath, McCaber or Rikae) then he might be interpreted as having dreamed of him. It's most likely that they thought he was the Seer, but the possibility of it being a confusion tactic still remains. As for whether killing Volo might save anyone, the only one that comes to mind is Morsul. At the end of yesterDay, Sally and Nog appeared to be theorising about a Morsul-Volo wizard pack, given Volo's defence of Morsul. If Morsul is a wizer, killing Volo would be a quick way to knock that line of thought on the head. Even so...it's hard to guess how much danger the wizers would have felt in from Sally and Nog's discussion. Since I was writing this up, I deliberately didn't look too carefully at other people's analysis of Volo, so I'll go ahead and look at those posts now. Edit: cross-posted with an unknown but large amount of posts. Last one I'd read was #293. Also edited for formatting. Last edited by Coppermirror; 01-26-2013 at 09:13 AM. |
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#19 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 344
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If Volo was killed for Seerishness, Boro and Gil are top wizard candidates. But Volo might also have picked out innocents and been killed for that.
I remain concerned about Nog and Boro's Day 1 vote placement, and Gil's logic yesterDay. For the reasons in post #229 and his vote toDay, I'm worried about Morsul. So I could vote for any of those four, since I actually suspect them. I do not want to permit Rikae to be lynched by default, since I don't suspect her any more. (I really don't think a wizard-her would be bringing up a funeral as ammo for why she's stressed. That would be low, and I have no reason to suppose she would stoop that low.) Edit: crossed since #383 |
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#20 |
Reflection of Darkness
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull.
Posts: 2,983
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Of those who have already received votes, I'd be most likely to vote Boromir. He's not my top suspect, but his vote for Greenie does look bad. Why would he be so concerned with her cryptic reasoning for suspecting of him were he innocent? Especially when I don't think he was highly suspected by anyone else at that point (correct me if I'm wrong).
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Nolite te bastardes carborundorum |
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