Native american indians?

[Ulvenok]

You called me Tonto?

Anyway I think valinor could very well be america before it was invaded by "man". If that is so then Numenor's destruction would be a maybe even greater metaphorical plot device to symbolise his disapproval of how the europeans treated that land and it's people. He hated machines and loved nature, if one would draw paralells between the fictional and real world which Tolkien did. Then I think in fact that Valinor could represent america before the cowboys invaded it.

Drowning Numenor and moving valinor from the world would then be quite significant and very interesting. Also if one assumes Valinor to be america before it was invaded by the europeans then that would maybe help one explain some enigmas in the story that aren't thoroughly explained. Oh yeah and if you calling me Tonto was meant as an insult you're quite off your target since I'm scandinavian.

[alatar]

Ulvenok, why do you think "drowning Numenor and moving valinor from the world would then be quite significant and very interesting"? If Valinor is Pre-Columbus America, what happens to America when it is removed from the circle of the world?

[Ulvenok]

Uhh what happens to america when it's removed from the world? What kind of question is that, if one would translate moving valinor from the world and destroying numenor, apply that to our own history. Then that'd mean Tolkien would have prefered the colonization of america never to have taken place. If one would try to think of Arda as our real world and it's history, a lot of what happens in the fiction would make more sense and it would also highlight Tolkien's own views on certain geopolitical events throughout history. However this would be a sensitive topic, since people of many cultures love Tolkien today and even interweave their own cultural heritage with Tolkien's fiction, which necessarly was not meant to be perceived in that fashion. In either case if we would try to draw parallels between our own world and Arda maybe some of the enigmas in the stories would make more sense?

(I so deserve an A in english don't you think) xD

[alatar]

Thanks for the reply (and your English is excellent!).

If Valinor were America, then it would be more the mythological America than the real one we find in history. The aboriginals weren't all peace loving Noble Savages. They share the same DNA with those that came later from the East, and that DNA contains the genes for war and other orc work.

Also, the natives used some tools, which, given more time, might have led to the smoke stacks that Tolkien seemed to hate.

That said, I can see what you mean about America being the idyllic paradise in the West.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Uhh what happens to america when it's removed from the world? What kind of question is that, if one would translate moving valinor from the world and destroying numenor, apply that to our own history. Then that'd mean Tolkien would have prefered the colonization of america never to have taken place. If one would try to think of Arda as our real world and it's history, a lot of what happens in the fiction would make more sense and it would also highlight Tolkien's own views on certain geopolitical events throughout history. However this would be a sensitive topic, since people of many cultures love Tolkien today and even interweave their own cultural heritage with Tolkien's fiction, which necessarly was not meant to be perceived in that fashion. In either case if we would try to draw parallels between our own world and Arda maybe some of the enigmas in the stories would make more sense?

(I so deserve an A in english don't you think) xD

Not without correct use of capital letters for proper names, or proper end punctuation for sentences, or that dreaded phantom menace, spelling.

Given that Middle-earth is supposed to be the very early ages of our own world, I would think that the mythology would mirror the concepts of world geography from our early cultures. Early people had no idea that North America existed, so it makes sense that Tolkien's Legendarium would not include an actual continent of North America, but the fairy realm, which becomes quite clear if one reads BoLT and other Tolkien books on the Legendarium.

Also, I think that this interpretation of the colonisation of the New World is probably too close to the kind of thinking about RotR and World War II which Tolkien deplored in his introduction to LotR. Tolkien wasn't writing an allegory of current events.

And Morth, I think that using the name "Tonto" is unnecessarily inflamatory. We are going through some very serious issues right now in my home country with our First Nations peoples and I think many would find your use unfortunate at best and downright insulting at worst.

[Mithalwen]

I thought that it was just a bit of a pun on the New World to have the new lands formed after the removal of Valinor from the circles of the world. Numenor has paralels with Atlantisl

Master Alatar, some of us might say that it helps us understand why many Elves preferred to stay in Middle Earth.:P

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I thought that it was just a bit of a pun on the New World to have the new lands formed after the removal of Valinor from the circles of the world. Numenor has paralels with Atlantisl

Yes, of course, the Atlantis link! Well put, Mithalwen. It is even more intriguing as apparently Tolkien himself had recurrent dreams of drowning. I think he might even had thought of it as a kind of archetypal dream, but I don't have the Letters at hand now to find the reference.

[Ulvenok]

If Valinor were America, then it would be more the mythological America than the real one we find in history.

Many westerners had a romanticised vision of the native american indians back then and I think even Tolkien might have fallen prey to this. The buffalo bill tour through europe popularized the legends of cowboys and indians, I don't think young Tolkien escaped this and it might have influenced him, but probably not.

That's interesting. A remake of The Lone Ranger with Johnny Depp as Tonto is being released soon.

P.S. But I removed the offending name from my previous post because I don't want anyone going on the warpath.

It wasn't offending at all, I love native americans. But maybe you "native" americans don't like native americans and thought you'd kill two birds with one stone? You don't have to apologize since I did not take any offense. If I had taken offense it'd be kinda too late to apologize you know.

You have already been caught with your pants down, maybe I should take my pants down too and we'd get on with it!!
On a more serious note, I agree with Bethberry.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And Morth, I think that using the name "Tonto" is unnecessarily inflamatory. We are going through some very serious issues right now in my home country with our First Nations peoples and I think many would find your use unfortunate at best and downright insulting at worst.

That's interesting. A remake of The Lone Ranger with Johnny Depp as Tonto is being released soon.

P.S. But I removed the offending name from my previous post because I don't want anyone going on the warpath.