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#1 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Letters #165: Quote:
describe in detail a small portion of it (what is, in effect, Europe) and describing only vaguely, as someone in much of the medieval period, would have known of Asia and most of Africa, and probably view it as menacing and mysterious. Hence, Middle-earth is conceived as Europe, Africa, and Asia, in a time when (Tolkien would teasingly now allude to continental drift as cause) the Old World land mass "between the seas" of the Atlantic and Pacific were different.
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' Last edited by Tuor in Gondolin; 12-28-2012 at 02:31 PM. |
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#2 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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I believe it's true to say, is it not, that "Middle-earth" as a continent included the vast lands of Rhūn and Harad as well as "the West", ie Gondor, Rohan, Rhovanion and Eriador? At the end of the Third Age Sauron already more or less controlled all of the East and the South which seemingly made up the majority of Middle-earth's landmass.
It might be worth noting this remark from letter 183: Quote:
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So I would say the answer is this: Sauron did only want Middle-earth, but Middle-earth was more than just the West. That being said, he already controlled the rest of it. Only the West was holding out. |
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#3 |
Loremaster of Annśminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
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Remember, in the Third Age Aman and Eressea were no longer part of "the Earth;" Tolkien implies at the end of Akallabeth that the proto-Americas were created at the time of the Downfall and the World Made Round. I have no doubt that ultimately Sauron would have liked to control the New (literally) World as well.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnt know, and when he didnt know it. |
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#4 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
Posts: 1,767
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I don't think Sauron would ever have been satisfied with partial dominion. Greed and desire never seem to be satisfied in the beings who have gone to the evil side. Ungoliant's never ending hunger comes to mind, along with Morgoth's dissatisfaction with staying in his realms in the North (although, granted his original desire was for all of Arda). I'd guess that Sauron would fall into the same mold.
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. |
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#5 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 257
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"This time spent east could've been part of Saruman's corruption and betrayal"
That's total rubbish. It was prompted by his study of Ring-lore and Souron's black arts. You can't rewrite a storyline, esp. after publication.
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Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia |
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#6 |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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Total rubbish? I say "could've" and "part," and I stand by them.
He spent time out east where Sauron and Morgoth had influence dating back to the First Age. There's nothing contradictory about suggesting he could've picked up certain arts - even specifically some of Sauron's arts, as you say - or just mentally came closer to succumbing to his own desire of power. He was gone a thousand years. Don't think he was playing Bingo that long.
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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#7 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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![]() Anyway, his personality is someone who loves to study things and absorb knowledge. Even if he wasn't evil at the time he went East, his personality (like Boromir's) had little defects that if unchecked would definitely lead down a path to evil. He was proud (led to lusting for power to the point that he was blinded by it and I would say even paranoid about losing his authority) and jealous of Gandalf, even back in Valinor, but especially after figuring out Gandalf had been given one of the elven rings: Quote:
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So, travelling East with the Blue Wizards I would say that yes, Saruman would have absorbed whatever knowledge he had a mind to take. We know that it was his devices which ultimate drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur too. This thirst for taking knowledge, yet not sharing any, probably contributed to his treachery. So, I think his knowledge of Sauron's mind and schemes (not to mention the study of Ring-lore) was unrivalled, even by Gandalf. At least until the time when Saruman falls to his lust for power, he becomes blind to the fact he has become a generic brand of Sauron.
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Fenris Penguin
Last edited by Boromir88; 01-03-2013 at 02:28 PM. |
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