Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.

So why didn't he accept Elrond already ages ago? The question is still the same. Why would the Wood-Elves suddenly change their thinking?

To claim there was just a few elves defeats the purpose of Arwen being their Queen. What is the point of being Queen of a small group? Even the Kings of Arthedain gave up the title king, though they would have had numbers in the 100. Why would Arwen take it if there were so few elves left to accept her?

Well exactly. That's why I am saying that the title does not make any sense. It is there only as a remider, so that we, as readers, are aware "hey, by the way, you know that even though she had like 100 'subjects', she still was the Queen of Elves?". Also, what supports this is the fact that Tolkien does not mention it anywhere else but in this one sentence in the Appendices. It was not important, because being the Queen of Elves meant being the queen of a hundred Elves (who are pretty much free anyway).

Here we see Aragorn soon rules over an empire with other kings under even Dain and Bard excepting his protection. It is not hard to believe that Thrandiul and other elves would come to a similar agreement like Thorin, especially with the threats from the East.

That is fine. But there is difference between being subject to someone and being an ally to someone, or under his protection. The Elven realms were NOT part of the kingdom.

Your problem is that you seem to be under the perception that thousands of elves could leave ME instantly. Where were the ships to take them? Even if they wished to leave straight away such a migration would take tens of years and by all accounts they did not want to leave immediately.

What "instantly"? Please reread my post. The Elves had been leaving throughout years during the Third Age, and further on during the Fourth.

Aragorn we are told leads a confederation of united allies and many of them are under his crown. Stands to reason the Elves too would accept his protection and kingship. Whilst there is no reason to assume all the elves had left just 120 years after the ring was destroyed.

Not all, but almost all. Most importantly, basically all the former Sindar etc. would have left. Those who would have remained would have been the Wood-Elves. And they, as I have argued earlier, are not part of the "inheritance" of Arwen's "queenship", since they never were subjects to any Elven kings of old.

No there was still thousands of elves in Mirkwood. Without taking his full force, Thranduil can take 1000 elvish warriors to the battle of five armies. That alone means the population numbered in their thousands.

Sure, sure. But the Elves of Mirkwood are not our concern. They are Avari. They are on their own.

Then there is the population in Lorien, which seemed equally as numerous. But we learn these people soon leave.

Exactly. And so do those in Rivendell (and Havens).

Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

What Eregion, please? Eregion was empty since the time Sauron sacked it ages ago.

As for Lindon, true, we are not told how many Elves lived there. However, it is strongly implied that the Elves living along the shore were slowly leaving throughout ages, as those in Grey Havens. So I certainly wouldn't imagine something like suddenly discovering another couple of thousand Elves in Lindon who could become a part of Arwen's "realm". I stand by the original thought of a few hundred mariners, only waiting to call it off and eventually leave.

Again you only focus on how Aragorn was King of Arnor and Gondor, but he was Lord of the West and had many lands under his protection and crown. Tolkien outright tells us he was an Imperial Power. Arwen is called Queen of Elves. Considering both Dale and The Lonely Mountain accept Aragorn's authority, I fail to see how hard it is to believe so did the remaining elves. Especially since we are again explicitly told she was Queen of Elves and Men.

Okay, I think with this I finally understood where you are coming from. But that is pure speculation. And even then, once again, this was the Age of Men. Being the Queen of Elves really meant nothing in Middle-Earth anymore, to put it bluntly.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So why didn't he accept Elrond already ages ago? The question is still the same. Why would the Wood-Elves suddenly change their thinking?

Who said Elrond wanted to be king? Did Elrond even have the means to be a king? You might as well as why Luthien did not become Queen of Doriath.

That apart circumstances change. Being united to a great confederation is a great pull. Just look at how keen people are to join the European Union.

Well exactly. That's why I am saying that the title does not make any sense. It is there only as a remider, so that we, as readers, are aware "hey, by the way, you know that even though she had like 100 'subjects', she still was the Queen of Elves?". Also, what supports this is the fact that Tolkien does not mention it anywhere else but in this one sentence in the Appendices. It was not important, because being the Queen of Elves meant being the queen of a hundred Elves (who are pretty much free anyway).

There is much Tolkien does not mention except in the Appendices. This was a development that would begin in the fourth age. It is still an idea Tolkien retains and we have further evidence of other kingdoms willingly joining .

That is fine. But there is difference between being subject to someone and being an ally to someone, or under his protection. The Elven realms were NOT part of the kingdom.

Well the relationships between each kingdom and Aragorn seemed depended on what they wished. Rohan and a lot of the Shire were not under the crown, but Dale was and Umbar. You are too keen to dismiss Arwen's royal title and ignore the many other examples of kingdoms desiring to be linked to King of the West.

What "instantly"? Please reread my post. The Elves had been leaving throughout years during the Third Age, and further on during the Fourth.

Even at the end of the Third Age, Mirkwood alone had thousands of elves. As I said before a conservative estimate would be around 5,000.

Not all, but almost all. Most importantly, basically all the former Sindar etc. would have left. Those who would have remained would have been the Wood-Elves. And they, as I have argued earlier, are not part of the "inheritance" of Arwen's "queenship", since they never were subjects to any Elven kings of old.

Why would all the Sindar have left? As I said it would take perhaps a 100 years for all the elves to leave and this was if they wanted to leave immediately after the end of the fourth age.

The Sindar kings of the wood elves are in a similar position to the Numenoreans in ME, when Elendil arrived. What did the Prince of Dol Amroth do when Elendil had established a kingdom? He accepted Elendil's position as the faithful heir of Elros and consequently ruler of the Numenoreans. Why wouldn't the Sindar now that Arwen was Queen of a great kingdom?

Even if Eregion and Lindon were emptying, the land was hers by right. Aragorn was a just king and would not expand into land, which did not belong to him. What other kings did after was there business, but Aragorn would only take lands, that wished to join or were his by right.

Sure, sure. But the Elves of Mirkwood are not our concern. They are Avari. They are on their own.

Not of all of them, there would be a few Sindar and Nandor amongst them.

Exactly. And so do those in Rivendell (and Havens).

Yes, but not immediately and many would remain until the death of Aragorn.

What Eregion, please? Eregion was empty since the time Sauron sacked it ages ago.

Yes, but Arwen also inherited the lands, which were hers by right.

As for Lindon, true, we are not told how many Elves lived there. However, it is strongly implied that the Elves living along the shore were slowly leaving throughout ages, as those in Grey Havens. So I certainly wouldn't imagine something like suddenly discovering another couple of thousand Elves in Lindon who could become a part of Arwen's "realm". I stand by the original thought of a few hundred mariners, only waiting to call it off and eventually leave.

There was enough power in Lindon to withstand Sauron for a while, even at the end of the third age. There was probably a few thousand elves still living there.

Okay, I think with this I finally understood where you are coming from. But that is pure speculation. And even then, once again, this was the Age of Men. Being the Queen of Elves really meant nothing in Middle-Earth anymore, to put it bluntly.

If being the Queen of Elves meant nothing, then why was Arwen given the title, when Galadriel and Elrond never took royal titles? It must have had some significance and we can see that other kingdoms including even dwarves wished to be under the crown.