Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

See what I quoted there. The Wood-Elves would not have accepted Arwen as their queen simply because they did not accept anyone before. Not even Lúthien, for that matter. Lúthien, for the Avari, was some random elf behind the mountains in the First Age. Even for many of the Elves in Beleriand, there was no reason to flock to the small kingdom in Ossiriand after Lúthien and Beren had returned there briefly. No, we are told plainly, and I quote once again, the whole passage this time (emphasises mine):

A lot of the wood elves were made up of Sindar and Nandor elves, all of whom excepted the Lordship of Thingol.

Luthien never tried to claim any form of queenship. Even after the death of Thingol she did not try and claim the kingdom of Doriath. She instead left it for Dior.

It is clear that the Wood-Elves remained under Thranduil and were left to themselves, just as they always had been. I think you that at least that is pretty clear, completely objectively, also taking into account the behavior of the Avari in the past ages. Likewise, if you read in the Unfinished Tales "of Galadriel and Celeborn", there is pretty lengthy debate about how the Wood-Elves, also in Lórien, were not particularly inclined to accept "foreigners" and how Celeborn and Galadriel, out of respect, never really took the title of "King and Queen", but simply did what they had to, and were content with whatever respect the Elves gave them. Therefore, there is really no "inherited claim" for Lórien through Galadriel. Celeborn kept his post as the Lord of Galadhrim until a couple of years after Galadriel's departure, as we read, and after that, there likely was no other external ruler in Lórien. If Arwen came and claimed rulership over Lórien, it would likely have been mentioned in the text above, right? She would likely have - using your arguments, having the beauty of Lúthien which you said was so inspiring for all the Elves - cheered up the remaining Elves. Instead, we only read about sad remaining "few" Elves who are left in their solitude and gloom (and possibly eventually depart for the West).

Arwen was not a foreigner. She was the granddaughter of the their former Lords and had spent lived among them.

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.

To claim there was just a few elves defeats the purpose of Arwen being their Queen. What is the point of being Queen of a small group? Even the Kings of Arthedain gave up the title king, though they would have had numbers in the 100. Why would Arwen take it if there were so few elves left to accept her?

As for the first part, see above. The claim of Lórien is absolutely out of question if you read "Of Celeborn and Galadriel" in the UT. As for the second part, there was nothing about Lórien being a part of the kingdom. Certainly not part of the kingdom of Gondor&Rohan reunited!

If you read Tolkien's work you would see Aragorn is Lord of the West and held as leader of a confederation made up of several kingdoms.


Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a ‘market-garden job’ as you term it.


Then Bard II, Brand's son, became king in the Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dain's son, became the king under the mountain. They sent their ambassadors to the crowning of Elessar and their realms remained ever after, as long as they lasted, in friendship, with Gondor, and they under the crown and the protection of the King of the West.

Here we see Aragorn soon rules over an empire with other kings under even Dain and Bard excepting his protection. It is not hard to believe that Thrandiul and other elves would come to a similar agreement like Thorin, especially with the threats from the East.

I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe.
Nope, let's make it clear. This has nothing to do with Arwen or my perception of her. I certainly do not want to diminish her role. As for her role as the Queen of the reunited kingdom, I fully accept all of that. As for her personal powers or abilities, that is completely out of the scope of discussion for me, it has nothing to do with her claims of rulership or whatnot. I also fully accept the fact that, by bloodline, she had the right to all the Elven kingdoms formed by the Sindar/Teleri/Noldor and their descendants. What I am saying is that with all her right as being the last in the line of the Elven kings in Middle-Earth, the problem is that there were really no realms to rule. And no Elves to rule. The age of Elves was gone. They were not active in the world's affairs anyway, they had not been already for some time except for a random surge here and there. You certainly are aware that you cannot compare Arwen ruling over the remnants of Elves from Rivendell etc with the mighty kingdoms of the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin, Finrod, Thingol, etc etc.

Your problem is that you seem to be under the perception that thousands of elves could leave ME instantly. Where were the ships to take them? Even if they wished to leave straight away such a migration would take tens of years and by all accounts they did not want to leave immediately.

Aragorn we are told leads a confederation of united allies and many of them are under his crown. Stands to reason the Elves too would accept his protection and kingship. Whilst there is no reason to assume all the elves had left just 120 years after the ring was destroyed.

No, of course not. It took some years. But let's not forget that Elves had begun their departure already much much earlier, they had been leaving throughout the Third Age, and faster so around the time of the War of the Ring (that's what even the Hobbits notice, as we read in the first chapters of LotR). So there were pretty few Elves at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and still leaving. Not arriving anymore. Of course. And...

No there was still thousands of elves in Mirkwood. Without taking his full force, Thranduil can take 1000 elvish warriors to the battle of five armies. That alone means the population numbered in their thousands.

Then there is the population in Lorien, which seemed equally as numerous. But we learn these people soon leave.

What? Elven realms growing in size? In Fourth Age? Already in Third they were diminishing, heck, even in the Second already, so can you supply a quote to this? The only thing changing was the fact that Ithilien and Mirkwood was freed from the oppression of the Enemy, so the Elves could migrate there and wander around some new woods. If that's what you mean, then okay, but it certainly is not any "expansion", because they would leave half-empty woods behind them in their former homes.

If they were leaving half the woods empty it would hardly be an expansion and worth moving. We are told they actually remain largely untroubled.

Really? This sounds rather fabricated to me. Because what we hear is:
I think Elessar had pretty good times, given diplomatic efforts and all that. And as for the Elves, nobody would attack Lórien, for sure (not from such far away, nobody did it anyway throughout ages, even when the Easterlings attacked Calenardhon), since it was across the river and too far, but neither Mirkwood. First, why would anybody attack forest-Elves in forest which is not even good for conquering (seriously, why would you conquer a forest?). Second, once again pointing to the quote above, "in the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled" says it all, I think.

I don't think the untroubled line was talking about war. There was still danger from orcs, which you seem to have dismissed.

Once again, just repeating what I already said in this post, the Elves had been migrating throughout the Third Age, in larger numbers before the War of the Ring. And of course not instantly, but there were years. Aragorn and Arwen ruled for what, 120 years? Even if you had one ship leaving per year, and you'd have, okay, completely guessing now, even if I say 30 Elves per ship (which is probably much less than there would be), you'd have 1500 Elves gone during 50 years. And that is already about as much as there would have been in Middle-Earth by that point, I say. Likely, it would of course be much faster.

Why would they leave when we are told that whilst the Silvan folk of Lorien were leaving, the elves of Mirkwood extended their kingdom and had a colony in Ithilien? At the time of Hobbit a conservative estimate has the Elvish population of Mirkwood at around 5000.

"Many" is what? Once again: Rivendell. And??? Grey Havens, possibly? (They were probably empty soon, but even if not, nothing much there.) Ithilien, though that'd be via Aragorn, not via her Elven heritage, since the Elves there were Wood-Elves and Ithilien of course was never an Elven kingdom before. That's it. Lórien - not, Mirkwood - certainly not. And even if you managed to argue for Lórien, it is not "many" Elven lands. It is one valley, one city, and okay, Lórien could be considered a "land" in its full sense. But given that Arwen did not have claim to it (or: did not claim it, as it seems evident from the text), anyway...

The "Elven lands" had been sunk for over two Ages by the time Arwen became the Queen.

Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

Again you only focus on how Aragorn was King of Arnor and Gondor, but he was Lord of the West and had many lands under his protection and crown. Tolkien outright tells us he was an Imperial Power. Arwen is called Queen of Elves. Considering both Dale and The Lonely Mountain accept Aragorn's authority, I fail to see how hard it is to believe so did the remaining elves. Especially since we are again explicitly told she was Queen of Elves and Men.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.

So why didn't he accept Elrond already ages ago? The question is still the same. Why would the Wood-Elves suddenly change their thinking?

To claim there was just a few elves defeats the purpose of Arwen being their Queen. What is the point of being Queen of a small group? Even the Kings of Arthedain gave up the title king, though they would have had numbers in the 100. Why would Arwen take it if there were so few elves left to accept her?

Well exactly. That's why I am saying that the title does not make any sense. It is there only as a remider, so that we, as readers, are aware "hey, by the way, you know that even though she had like 100 'subjects', she still was the Queen of Elves?". Also, what supports this is the fact that Tolkien does not mention it anywhere else but in this one sentence in the Appendices. It was not important, because being the Queen of Elves meant being the queen of a hundred Elves (who are pretty much free anyway).

Here we see Aragorn soon rules over an empire with other kings under even Dain and Bard excepting his protection. It is not hard to believe that Thrandiul and other elves would come to a similar agreement like Thorin, especially with the threats from the East.

That is fine. But there is difference between being subject to someone and being an ally to someone, or under his protection. The Elven realms were NOT part of the kingdom.

Your problem is that you seem to be under the perception that thousands of elves could leave ME instantly. Where were the ships to take them? Even if they wished to leave straight away such a migration would take tens of years and by all accounts they did not want to leave immediately.

What "instantly"? Please reread my post. The Elves had been leaving throughout years during the Third Age, and further on during the Fourth.

Aragorn we are told leads a confederation of united allies and many of them are under his crown. Stands to reason the Elves too would accept his protection and kingship. Whilst there is no reason to assume all the elves had left just 120 years after the ring was destroyed.

Not all, but almost all. Most importantly, basically all the former Sindar etc. would have left. Those who would have remained would have been the Wood-Elves. And they, as I have argued earlier, are not part of the "inheritance" of Arwen's "queenship", since they never were subjects to any Elven kings of old.

No there was still thousands of elves in Mirkwood. Without taking his full force, Thranduil can take 1000 elvish warriors to the battle of five armies. That alone means the population numbered in their thousands.

Sure, sure. But the Elves of Mirkwood are not our concern. They are Avari. They are on their own.

Then there is the population in Lorien, which seemed equally as numerous. But we learn these people soon leave.

Exactly. And so do those in Rivendell (and Havens).

Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

What Eregion, please? Eregion was empty since the time Sauron sacked it ages ago.

As for Lindon, true, we are not told how many Elves lived there. However, it is strongly implied that the Elves living along the shore were slowly leaving throughout ages, as those in Grey Havens. So I certainly wouldn't imagine something like suddenly discovering another couple of thousand Elves in Lindon who could become a part of Arwen's "realm". I stand by the original thought of a few hundred mariners, only waiting to call it off and eventually leave.

Again you only focus on how Aragorn was King of Arnor and Gondor, but he was Lord of the West and had many lands under his protection and crown. Tolkien outright tells us he was an Imperial Power. Arwen is called Queen of Elves. Considering both Dale and The Lonely Mountain accept Aragorn's authority, I fail to see how hard it is to believe so did the remaining elves. Especially since we are again explicitly told she was Queen of Elves and Men.

Okay, I think with this I finally understood where you are coming from. But that is pure speculation. And even then, once again, this was the Age of Men. Being the Queen of Elves really meant nothing in Middle-Earth anymore, to put it bluntly.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So why didn't he accept Elrond already ages ago? The question is still the same. Why would the Wood-Elves suddenly change their thinking?

Who said Elrond wanted to be king? Did Elrond even have the means to be a king? You might as well as why Luthien did not become Queen of Doriath.

That apart circumstances change. Being united to a great confederation is a great pull. Just look at how keen people are to join the European Union.

Well exactly. That's why I am saying that the title does not make any sense. It is there only as a remider, so that we, as readers, are aware "hey, by the way, you know that even though she had like 100 'subjects', she still was the Queen of Elves?". Also, what supports this is the fact that Tolkien does not mention it anywhere else but in this one sentence in the Appendices. It was not important, because being the Queen of Elves meant being the queen of a hundred Elves (who are pretty much free anyway).

There is much Tolkien does not mention except in the Appendices. This was a development that would begin in the fourth age. It is still an idea Tolkien retains and we have further evidence of other kingdoms willingly joining .

That is fine. But there is difference between being subject to someone and being an ally to someone, or under his protection. The Elven realms were NOT part of the kingdom.

Well the relationships between each kingdom and Aragorn seemed depended on what they wished. Rohan and a lot of the Shire were not under the crown, but Dale was and Umbar. You are too keen to dismiss Arwen's royal title and ignore the many other examples of kingdoms desiring to be linked to King of the West.

What "instantly"? Please reread my post. The Elves had been leaving throughout years during the Third Age, and further on during the Fourth.

Even at the end of the Third Age, Mirkwood alone had thousands of elves. As I said before a conservative estimate would be around 5,000.

Not all, but almost all. Most importantly, basically all the former Sindar etc. would have left. Those who would have remained would have been the Wood-Elves. And they, as I have argued earlier, are not part of the "inheritance" of Arwen's "queenship", since they never were subjects to any Elven kings of old.

Why would all the Sindar have left? As I said it would take perhaps a 100 years for all the elves to leave and this was if they wanted to leave immediately after the end of the fourth age.

The Sindar kings of the wood elves are in a similar position to the Numenoreans in ME, when Elendil arrived. What did the Prince of Dol Amroth do when Elendil had established a kingdom? He accepted Elendil's position as the faithful heir of Elros and consequently ruler of the Numenoreans. Why wouldn't the Sindar now that Arwen was Queen of a great kingdom?

Even if Eregion and Lindon were emptying, the land was hers by right. Aragorn was a just king and would not expand into land, which did not belong to him. What other kings did after was there business, but Aragorn would only take lands, that wished to join or were his by right.

Sure, sure. But the Elves of Mirkwood are not our concern. They are Avari. They are on their own.

Not of all of them, there would be a few Sindar and Nandor amongst them.

Exactly. And so do those in Rivendell (and Havens).

Yes, but not immediately and many would remain until the death of Aragorn.

What Eregion, please? Eregion was empty since the time Sauron sacked it ages ago.

Yes, but Arwen also inherited the lands, which were hers by right.

As for Lindon, true, we are not told how many Elves lived there. However, it is strongly implied that the Elves living along the shore were slowly leaving throughout ages, as those in Grey Havens. So I certainly wouldn't imagine something like suddenly discovering another couple of thousand Elves in Lindon who could become a part of Arwen's "realm". I stand by the original thought of a few hundred mariners, only waiting to call it off and eventually leave.

There was enough power in Lindon to withstand Sauron for a while, even at the end of the third age. There was probably a few thousand elves still living there.

Okay, I think with this I finally understood where you are coming from. But that is pure speculation. And even then, once again, this was the Age of Men. Being the Queen of Elves really meant nothing in Middle-Earth anymore, to put it bluntly.

If being the Queen of Elves meant nothing, then why was Arwen given the title, when Galadriel and Elrond never took royal titles? It must have had some significance and we can see that other kingdoms including even dwarves wished to be under the crown.