Arwen vs. Galadriel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The Elven colony in Ithilien is a good point, since it was formally within the scope of the renewed kingdom. However, there probably also were not very many - again, I imagine like a few dozens (not unlike the former Rangers of Ithilien). Let us not forget that the Fourth Age is the dominion of Men and the Elves gradually withdraw and vanish. Even Legolas did not stay forever.

Legolas stayed until the death of Aragorn. I would imagine the majority of his folk would stay at least as long as he did and maybe longer.

Celeborn, on the other hand, retained his own "sovereignity", that much is clear. Him and Thranduil ruled over the rest of Lórien&"East Lórien" (former Southern Mirkwood) and Mirkwood, respectively; and whoever was the queen of the Elven realms in Middle-Earth descended through Elrond was no concern to them, as it never would have been.

I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.

Why? They never, ever acknowledged any other authority before. Why would they suddenly do so now? And they still had "their" Thranduil. The fate of Lórien's Elves is also clear after Celeborn's departure from there. Let me quote:


Pretty clear, the picture of "diminish and depart". Celeborn's own story aside, the Wood-Elves seem to be the same as they always had been. The Avari, who originally refused to go to the West, had no part whatsoever in the Beleriand Wars, and remained "in their own sandbox" also for most of the latter ages (with the exception of e.g. the Last Alliance, and even then they followed their own leader, and not Gil-Galad's lead, which actually was their loss since they got butchered).

Yes, but no time frame is given about how long they take to diminish and depart. Legolas's colony was still around for the entirety of Aragorn's reign. Celeborn did not rule over Avari, becuase they had begun the journey west.

Elrond claimed to be the heir of Thingol, but he never desired the kingship. Arwen through Galadriel and Celeborn would also be the rightful heir of Lothlorien. When Celeborn departed to Rivendell, why would they not accept her as queen, since they would be under the protection of Gondor anyway.

I think this quote actually shows the true nature of Arwen's "queendom". My personal belief is that it actually shows this rather sad reminiscence of the past, pointing out that "hey, reader, please do not forget that Arwen was now, by right, on the same level, or the heir of, all those big names like Lúthien or Fingolfin or even more, since she combined all the bloodlines" (and all that plus the Númenorean bloodline via marriage, and all that also for her children). But this note for the reader is there because the reader might not have realised it from the looks of things, which are rather dull: something like at most hundred Elves (or maybe fifty) huddled together somewhere in Rivendell, another hundred possibly in Ithilien, plus a few wanderers, and that's about it. Yet exactly this is no more and no less but everything that remains of the former Elven Kingdoms of old.

I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe. Arwen was by her own right a great power. You seem to want to diminish Arwen's role rather than judge things objectively. The majority of elves in Middle Earth would not depart immediately after the end of the Third Age. Considering we know for a fact certain elvish realms still grew in size, a decent amount must have remained. There was enough in Ithilien to make it the fairest part of Gondor.

You also ignore that peace was not yet established in the Kingdom. Aragorn would often have to lead his armies to war with the east attacking from Rhun. The elves of Mirkwood and Lorien would be vulnerable to such attacks especially if there numbers were declining. They would likely in such a situation come under the protection of Reunited Empire, at least until they left.

Why am I quite certain of this being actually a remark rather reminding us of the noble descent of the currently poor Elven realms - if you look at the quote, it also contains a parallelism. "Heirs of Númenorean realms..." Well, Númenorean realms, as we certainly know, do not mean Númenor itself anymore! It means "the realm in exile", a realm reunited, to be sure, but still past its former glory. So likewise, the Elf-kingdoms of the West are in Beleriand... which does not exist anymore! Because, otherwise, what realms are there in the Third Age? Rivendell, which is, like, one valley? Possibly Grey Havens, which is one ghost town by now? And some Ithilien "colonies", which effectively means a large forest with one treetop house with three Elves per ten square miles? Geographically, Arwen would be the queen of even less than demographically. She might have ruled over, say, two to at most three hundred Elves, but geographically over what, ten square miles at most? One city+one valley? (Ithilien does not quite count, since it's the part of the Kingdom anyway, so it does not come through the "Elven" descent, as it also never had been an Elven realm before.)

This does not seem to be supported by the text at all. You want to be believe that enough ships to fair thousands of elves across the sea was built instantly? It took the Numenoreans over 50 years to migrate. Yet now you want to believe the elves did it instantly and all at the same time?

The more likely and logical answer I have already addressed. Arwen being the heir of Celeborn/Galadriel, the heir of Elrond and already a great Queen, would be able to grant protection to the elvish realms. In return they would recognise her sovereignty. Similar to the relation that Aragorn had with the King of Dale.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But once again, it's just a title. What does she have as an individual, being the Queen of Elves? This title does not seem to reflect anything other than her birth.

The elves had never been ones to accept leaders based on birth alone. I have pointed out how many an elvish leader, even exceptionally strong ones like Feanor and Galadriel had been rejected by their people. So Galadriel had more than just her birthright to hold them together.

Imagine Arwen is mysteriously sucked into a chamber-between-worlds. She is no one and has nothing except for what she has inside. She's not the Queen of Elves, the Queen of Gondor, the Evenstar, or anything like that. She is just her, without any titles. What does she have that is greater than what Galadriel has?

I never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel, but that she was great in her own right and accomplished many great things. People too often dismiss the role she played.

Sure. But that's still not the case with Arwen.

Arwen showed wisdom, patience and self sacrifice in her dealings with Aragorn. To give up immortality for the one she loved and in part to enrich Gondor was something important according to Tolkien and worthy of reward.

Fair enough. But in my opinion she did not have more arranging than anyone else. She might have been the one to put the idea into words, but she did not have the authority to do anything except for ask of it on Frodo's behalf.

Well by first seeing the flaw arranging for the Valar to be asked how did she not arrange it? She sought and got permission granted. Just because the Valar had the final say does not negate her role in anyway.

I say he was the most tempted, but also the strongest in will. Way stronger than the Ring, at least while he did not wear it himself.

I don't see anything to suggest he was more strongly tempted than Galadriel. He never contemplates stealing ring and never says he desired to use it. You are reading things that are not their in the text. The ring appeals more to those with certain flaws, most notably pride.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I think it´s pretty clear that she was able to read his mind.

Well you would be wrong, because this was impossible according to Tolkien. That apart Sauron was a greater power than Galadriel and even if she had the One Ring she would be unable to overcome him.

No one not even the Valar could read the mind of another 'equal being'. .....One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendencies of mind and thought..

Galadriel had a special gift of being able to read people from their previous actions and tendencies. She could not invade Sauron's mind in the way you think. As the article says this is impossible for even the greatest of the Valar to do to the weakest of the Hobbits. Let alone Galadriel trying to do it to a greater power than hers.

I think it is implied that she was actually able to read some parts of his mind. I imagine that it was not a easy procedure and that she has to stop at one point to prevent that he is able to see too much of her thoght or her thoghts at all.

Reading minds seems to be her speciality.

There is the debate in why Galadriel is considers the greatest of the Noldor, but many people don´t know why, or in what she is good at, to justify that claim.

With Feanor it´s easy but maybe Galadriel was the best in mind reading, so that she was able to do it with Sauron, even if that is actually not possible (I don´t remember the Osanwer Kenta text too well at this point).

As for mind reading....the essay on Osanwe-kenta details the limitations there. It is correct that no being can really read another's mind, but if you aren't actively shielding (so to speak) you may be unintentionally broadcasting your thoughts. Maybe she was strong enough to break his firewall so to speak.

Galadriel was weaker than Sauron by such a great margin, that even if she took the One Ring she could not defeat him. Sauron is no fool and would not be broadcasting his thoughts out like you wish to imagine. Galadriel had great deductive skills and given Sauron's actions both past and present could predict the way he was going to act. He though, being blinded by evil could not predict the same about her.

And there are far more examples of mind reading, in the end between Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Ceeborn I believe and of course when she was reading the minds of the company.

But I really don´t think that she was knowing his mind figuratively.

Again you are mistaken. Elves could broadcast their thoughts only if they intended to communicate them. It's not just elves, but the Numenoreans had the a similar ability.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Where is any evidence that Eldarion inherits "the elvish lands" or Arwen is recognised as Queen by any remaining elves? I can find the first sentence in my LOTR but not the second. And having it on Kindle I have been able to search key words.

The first sentence on it's own is hardly more substantial than Frodo naming Mrs Maggot a Queen. She does not rule. When Aragorn gives up his life it is Eldarion who rules. How she could become Queen of her own descent is hard to see especially when her father though arguably entitled does not use the title of King - a rather pointless title as head of a household which is all Rivendell is (in the expanded sense that Eomer for example when he describes his eored as men of his own household). And her elder brothers are living in Middle Earth for some of the time between Elrond's departure. Cirdan remains Lord of Havens until the last ship sails. Thranduil remains in Mirkwood. She may be revered for her beauty but she does not actually rule other than as Aragorn's wife.

I don't see that the draft has much force when it is of something Tolkien published in his own lifetime. And being heir of something isn't the same as inheriting something or even being heir to something. There has to be something to inherit. "His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West" seems to me to mean more that the lines of Luthien had been reconnected and enriched by the addition of the lines of Galadriel and Celeborn rather than that they were the literal heirs to the realms. Especially since the elf-realms were fading out. It would be like being Queen of Sealand.

I don't agree at all with your interpretation that it is similar to what Frodo calls Mrs Maggot. Arwen was a real Queen of men and put alongside her title is that she was Queen of Elves too.

Arwen had a legitimate claim to many of the Elven Lands.

As for the inheritance the text shows it is in relation to the lands that Eldarion and his heirs ruled over with a legitimate claim. Showing that he had a right to the lands he ruled.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by cellurdur:

As for the inheritance the text shows it is in relation to the lands that Eldarion and his heirs ruled over with a legitimate claim. Showing that he had a right to the lands he ruled.

I'm also curious as to where in the text this second quote appears. Like Mithalwen, I can find the first sentence, but not the second.

[elbenprincess]

Elves could broadcast their thoughts only if they intended to communicate them

Yes if they intended, Sauron surely didn´t intended that, but what if she was able to do it by force? Her power coupled with her ring? Was Sauron inhernetly that strong at the time, I rather think it was his army that made him so strong.
Still Galadriel was able to read the minds of the fellowship and they didn´t intended that, they not even would know how this works.

I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'

Why would he try to see her thought if he would´t be aware of Galadriels mindreading? He wants to see her thought, they struggle, but he isn´t able to do but she is.

One time she was able to win in a struggle with him too, when Eorl rode near Lorien.

"When they passed Dol Guldur in Mirkwood - where Sauron dwelled in secret - a darkness emanated from the fortress, and Eorl turned westward to avoid it. But then a white mist came from the woods of Lothlorien that stood across the River from Dol Guldur, and the Riders were hidden and continued safely on their way and, under the protection of the mist, apparently made the journey unwearyingly at an extraordinary rate of speed. "

Apparently Galadriel was able to conquer Saurons shadow, so why not able to read his thoughts?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Yes if they intended, Sauron surely didn´t intended that, but what if she was able to do it by force? Her power coupled with her ring? Was Sauron inhernetly that strong at the time, I rather think it was his army that made him so strong.
Still Galadriel was able to read the minds of the fellowship and they didn´t intended that, they not even would know how this works.

Simply, because Sauron was much more powerful then Galadriel and to do so was impossible for even the Valar to do. Tolkien explains what could be done in detail.

Sauron was much greater than Galadriel and greater even than Gandalf the White.

As I said before not even using the One Ring could Galadriel realistically defeat Sauron. What chance would she have without it?

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

There are several statements from Gandalf implying that only Sauron was more powerful than him in ME.

"I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still."

And so I am, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet unless you are brought alive before the seat of the dark lord.

Why would he try to see her thought if he would´t be aware of Galadriels mindreading? He wants to see her thought, they struggle, but he isn´t able to do but she is.

One time she was able to win in a sturgle with him too, when Eorl rode near Lorien.

"There were dark glooms flowing out of Dol Guldor, and I'm sure Sauron sensed Eorl's host approaching. Yet the white mists from Galadriel was able to drive back Sauron's darkness? Why is this? Does this mean that in his Necromancer state, Sauron is weaker? Being a maia, he could've easily pushed back Galadriel's enchanted mists and done away with Eorl and his host, but he was overpowered."

That are not my own words, I copied that.

Sauron wat not yet at his full power when this occured, because he was busy rebuilding his power that he had lost. By the time of the One Ring he had regained his former strength.

he was none other than Sauron, our enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again.


2060-The power of Dol Guldur grows




So yes he was much weaker, before his full powers were recovered. After they were recovered he was far too powerful for Galadriel or anyone else on Midddle Earth to deal with.

Even among the elven ring holders, Elrond is the most likely to be able to defeat Sauron, not Galadriel in a personal confrontation.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Originally posted by cellurdur:


I'm also curious as to where in the text this second quote appears. Like Mithalwen, I can find the first sentence, but not the second.

Which quote do you have in mind? It can be found in the People's of Middle Earth, which provide as a lot of details about how Tolkien developed the Appendixes.

These statements do not make the LOTR Appendix and are not fully cannon, but Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is retained. The statements here give some indication of what Tolkien intended by that title.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.

See what I quoted there. The Wood-Elves would not have accepted Arwen as their queen simply because they did not accept anyone before. Not even Lúthien, for that matter. Lúthien, for the Avari, was some random elf behind the mountains in the First Age. Even for many of the Elves in Beleriand, there was no reason to flock to the small kingdom in Ossiriand after Lúthien and Beren had returned there briefly. No, we are told plainly, and I quote once again, the whole passage this time (emphasises mine):

Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lórien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen. But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon.

It is clear that the Wood-Elves remained under Thranduil and were left to themselves, just as they always had been. I think you that at least that is pretty clear, completely objectively, also taking into account the behavior of the Avari in the past ages. Likewise, if you read in the Unfinished Tales "of Galadriel and Celeborn", there is pretty lengthy debate about how the Wood-Elves, also in Lórien, were not particularly inclined to accept "foreigners" and how Celeborn and Galadriel, out of respect, never really took the title of "King and Queen", but simply did what they had to, and were content with whatever respect the Elves gave them. Therefore, there is really no "inherited claim" for Lórien through Galadriel. Celeborn kept his post as the Lord of Galadhrim until a couple of years after Galadriel's departure, as we read, and after that, there likely was no other external ruler in Lórien. If Arwen came and claimed rulership over Lórien, it would likely have been mentioned in the text above, right? She would likely have - using your arguments, having the beauty of Lúthien which you said was so inspiring for all the Elves - cheered up the remaining Elves. Instead, we only read about sad remaining "few" Elves who are left in their solitude and gloom (and possibly eventually depart for the West).

Elrond claimed to be the heir of Thingol, but he never desired the kingship. Arwen through Galadriel and Celeborn would also be the rightful heir of Lothlorien. When Celeborn departed to Rivendell, why would they not accept her as queen, since they would be under the protection of Gondor anyway.

As for the first part, see above. The claim of Lórien is absolutely out of question if you read "Of Celeborn and Galadriel" in the UT. As for the second part, there was nothing about Lórien being a part of the kingdom. Certainly not part of the kingdom of Gondor&Rohan reunited!

I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe.

Arwen was by her own right a great power. You seem to want to diminish Arwen's role rather than judge things objectively.

Nope, let's make it clear. This has nothing to do with Arwen or my perception of her. I certainly do not want to diminish her role. As for her role as the Queen of the reunited kingdom, I fully accept all of that. As for her personal powers or abilities, that is completely out of the scope of discussion for me, it has nothing to do with her claims of rulership or whatnot. I also fully accept the fact that, by bloodline, she had the right to all the Elven kingdoms formed by the Sindar/Teleri/Noldor and their descendants. What I am saying is that with all her right as being the last in the line of the Elven kings in Middle-Earth, the problem is that there were really no realms to rule. And no Elves to rule. The age of Elves was gone. They were not active in the world's affairs anyway, they had not been already for some time except for a random surge here and there. You certainly are aware that you cannot compare Arwen ruling over the remnants of Elves from Rivendell etc with the mighty kingdoms of the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin, Finrod, Thingol, etc etc.

The majority of elves in Middle Earth would not depart immediately after the end of the Third Age.

No, of course not. It took some years. But let's not forget that Elves had begun their departure already much much earlier, they had been leaving throughout the Third Age, and faster so around the time of the War of the Ring (that's what even the Hobbits notice, as we read in the first chapters of LotR). So there were pretty few Elves at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and still leaving. Not arriving anymore. Of course. And...

Considering we know for a fact certain elvish realms still grew in size, a decent amount must have remained. There was enough in Ithilien to make it the fairest part of Gondor.

What? Elven realms growing in size? In Fourth Age? Already in Third they were diminishing, heck, even in the Second already, so can you supply a quote to this? The only thing changing was the fact that Ithilien and Mirkwood was freed from the oppression of the Enemy, so the Elves could migrate there and wander around some new woods. If that's what you mean, then okay, but it certainly is not any "expansion", because they would leave half-empty woods behind them in their former homes.

You also ignore that peace was not yet established in the Kingdom. Aragorn would often have to lead his armies to war with the east attacking from Rhun. The elves of Mirkwood and Lorien would be vulnerable to such attacks especially if there numbers were declining. They would likely in such a situation come under the protection of Reunited Empire, at least until they left.

Really? This sounds rather fabricated to me. Because what we hear is:

Originally Posted by RotK, The Steward and the King

And the King pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up, and sent them away free, and he made peace with the peoples of Harad; and the slaves of Mordor he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Núrnen to be their own.

I think Elessar had pretty good times, given diplomatic efforts and all that. And as for the Elves, nobody would attack Lórien, for sure (not from such far away, nobody did it anyway throughout ages, even when the Easterlings attacked Calenardhon), since it was across the river and too far, but neither Mirkwood. First, why would anybody attack forest-Elves in forest which is not even good for conquering (seriously, why would you conquer a forest?). Second, once again pointing to the quote above, "in the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled" says it all, I think.

You accused me of not considering facts objectively, but here you are fabricating arguments. So do not do that if we want to remain on objective basis.

This does not seem to be supported by the text at all. You want to be believe that enough ships to fair thousands of elves across the sea was built instantly? It took the Numenoreans over 50 years to migrate. Yet now you want to believe the elves did it instantly and all at the same time?

Once again, just repeating what I already said in this post, the Elves had been migrating throughout the Third Age, in larger numbers before the War of the Ring. And of course not instantly, but there were years. Aragorn and Arwen ruled for what, 120 years? Even if you had one ship leaving per year, and you'd have, okay, completely guessing now, even if I say 30 Elves per ship (which is probably much less than there would be), you'd have 1500 Elves gone during 50 years. And that is already about as much as there would have been in Middle-Earth by that point, I say. Likely, it would of course be much faster.

Arwen had a legitimate claim to many of the Elven Lands.

"Many" is what? Once again: Rivendell. And??? Grey Havens, possibly? (They were probably empty soon, but even if not, nothing much there.) Ithilien, though that'd be via Aragorn, not via her Elven heritage, since the Elves there were Wood-Elves and Ithilien of course was never an Elven kingdom before. That's it. Lórien - not, Mirkwood - certainly not. And even if you managed to argue for Lórien, it is not "many" Elven lands. It is one valley, one city, and okay, Lórien could be considered a "land" in its full sense. But given that Arwen did not have claim to it (or: did not claim it, as it seems evident from the text), anyway...

The "Elven lands" had been sunk for over two Ages by the time Arwen became the Queen.

[elbenprincess]

Simply, because Sauron was much more powerful then Galadriel and to do so was impossible for even the Valar to do. Tolkien explains what could be done in detail.

Morgoth was more powerful than Fingolfin and still was wounded by him, he was more powerful than Luthien and still was put to sleep by her so why is it so unbelievable that Galadriel could read some of his thoughts? That doesn´t mean that she was more powerful than him in generel, just that she had an edge oder him in these matter perhaps.

Even among the elven ring holders, Elrond is the most likely to be able to defeat Sauron, not Galadriel in a personal confrontation.

That is NOT true!!! I guess you assume that because of that:

it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

That is out of context, that is the full quote:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.

Both, Galadriel and Elrond thought of themself that they could master the ring, especially Elrond, that was due to the power of the ring. Only Gandalf could master it.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Morgoth was more powerful than Fingolfin and still was wounded by him, he was more powerful than Luthien and still was put to sleep by her so why is it so unbelievable that Galadriel could read some of his thoughts? That doesn´t mean that she was more powerful than him in generel, just that she had an edge oder him in these matter perhaps.

I have already shown you it was impossible to read the thoughts of another individual the way you like to think.

That is NOT true!!! I guess you assume that because of that:
That is out of context, that is the full quote:

Both, Galadriel and Elrond thought of themself that they could master the ring, especially Elrond, that was due to the power of the ring. Only Gandalf could master it.

No that is not the most likely context. Elrond has shown no lust for power, rejected the idea of creating the rings and seems to have little problem rejecting the ring.

From the grammar it is clear that he Tolkien is writing about mastering the One Ring. We have seen how the One Ring gave even Gollum and Sam delusions of grandeur. So this would not be anything special. He is saying IF Galadriel is correct in her belief she could master the ring, then would the other holders of the ringer ie Cirdan and Elrond possibly Gil-galad too, but Elrond out of all of them had the best chance. Considering the confrontation was one of power it would suggest Elrond had the greatest innate power out of all holders, except Gandalf.

[Boromir88]

Well, Arwen after all was the grand daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn who had spent time in Lorien. But after they depart, I agree with Legate that based on Galadriel and Celeborn not claiming direct rule over the Silvan elves in Lorien, then I can't see why they would suddenly take Arwen as their "Queen."

It reminds me of a peculiar line in The Hobbit which caused much discussion in the CBC thread:

In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.~A Short Rest

This is strange because it seems to imply an official ruling position over his own Elven house and the Dunedain (people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors). I positted that it was an informal courtesy to Elrond, as his close friendship to the Dunedain and vital role in keeping Isildur's line alive. I mean, Elrond even calls Aragorn "my son" at one point.

But calling Elrond "their chief" would still be a courtesy title, because the Kings of Arnor, and then Chieftain of the Dunedain is an official hereditary position, being what is left of Isildur and Elendil's line. Elrond has no claim to the throne of Gondor, but his kinship and close bond to the Dunedain means he is a revered figure and is informally seen as "a chief" to them.

This is how I read Arwen as "Queen of Elves and Men." It is a courtesy as one of the most respected and high lineage elf remaining in Middle-earth (also her marriage to Aragorn). Being the grand-daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn, I can surely imagine she was well received in Lorien, but this doesn't mean had an official rulership title as their "Queen." And of course through Elrond she would have his claims.

However, Elrond never claims the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-galad's death, for there is no point. It's like when Arnor ceased to be a political entity, Amlaith had a claim to be the next "King of Arnor" but fell into dispute. Arnor split and Amlaith had every claim to give himself the title of "King of Arnor" but Arnor no longer existed. So, it really becomes moot and an empty title.

[elbenprincess]

No that is not the most likely context. Elrond has shown no lust for power, rejected the idea of creating the rings and seems to have little problem rejecting the ring.

From the grammar it is clear that he Tolkien is writing about mastering the One Ring. We have seen how the One Ring gave even Gollum and Sam delusions of grandeur. So this would not be anything special. He is saying IF Galadriel is correct in her belief she could master the ring, then would the other holders of the ringer ie Cirdan and Elrond possibly Gil-galad too, but Elrond out of all of them had the best chance. Considering the confrontation was one of power it would suggest Elrond had the greatest innate power out of all holders, except Gandalf.

But he is saying that Galadriel is NOT correct in her belief that she could master the ring (because ONLY Gandalf could master the ring) and so is especially Elrond, it was only the deceit of the ring that makes them believe that they could do it.

That´s illogical, one time Tolkiens says that of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him and the next time he says that especially Elrond could master him? Don´t think so. I read it as if especially Elrond conceived of himself as capable of wielding the ring and supplanting the dark lord. You can read it both ways but I don´t think Elrond had the greatest innate power, Galadriel is described an an equal of Feanor (in later writing I know, but nevertheless that was Tolkiens take on her) who was the mightiest of the elves and I think no one would argue that he could match Feanor. Only because Elrond was decended from melian doesn´t mean that he was more powerful than the other elves. (In that logic same would apply for Arwen and the twins)Galadriel for sure and Glorfindel (only after his re-birth)are innately more powerful.

By the way, when was he rejecting the idea of creating the rings, he wasn´t even asked ;-)

However, Elrond never claims the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-galad's death

Now it depends which version you believe, but it was CT´s take his father intended Orodreth (sp?) to be father of Gil Galad, so he never could claim the kinship, cause Galadriel would be in the line for queenship.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by cellurdur:

Which quote do you have in mind? It can be found in the People's of Middle Earth, which provide as a lot of details about how Tolkien developed the Appendixes.

These statements do not make the LOTR Appendix and are not fully cannon, but Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is retained. The statements here give some indication of what Tolkien intended by that title.

I was actually hoping you could cite the specific source of this line you quoted in an earlier post:

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

Do you think there is significance in the fact that this quote appears in the draft from The Peoples of Middle Earth, but was ommited (presumably deliberately) from the published LotR appendices?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Originally posted by cellurdur:

I was actually hoping you could cite the specific source of this line you quoted in an earlier post:

Do you think there is significance in the fact that this quote appears in the draft from The Peoples of Middle Earth, but was ommited (presumably deliberately) from the published LotR appendices?

Yes I do think it is significant that it did not make the Appendix, but no reason is ever given for it. In the Appendix Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is brought up. In other letters it is made apparent that Aragorn would rule over an empire with many kings such as Thorin and Bard pledging allegiance and being placed under his protection. He would then fight many wars in the East all the way to the sea of Rhun. To think the elvish communities in a similar did something similar to Thorin and Bard does not seem a stretch given Arwen's title as the Queen of Elves.

The quotes can be found on Page 196 and 211, The Heirs of Elendil, The Peoples of Middle Earth,

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

But he is saying that Galadriel is NOT correct in her belief that she could master the ring and so is especially Elrond it was only the deceit of the ring that makes them believe that they could do it.

That´s illogical, one time Tolkiens says that of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him and the next time he says that especially Elrond could master him? Don´t think so. I read it as if especially Elrond conceived of himself as capable of wielding the ring and supplanting the dark lord. You can read it both ways but I don´t think Elrond had the greatest innate power, Galadriel is described an an equal of Feanor (in later writing I know, but nevertheless that was Tolkiens take on her) who was the mightiest of the elves and I think no one would argue that he could match Feanor. Only because Elrond was decended from melian doesn´t mean that he was more powerful than the other elves. (In that logic same would apply for Arwen and the twins)Galadriel for sure and Glorfindel (only after his re-birth)are innately more powerful.

Tolkien is saying this, that out of the others(the good guys) only Gandalf can be expected to master it.
Galadriel thought she could master it too.
If Galadriel could master it then so could the others.
Especially Elrond.
But the ring deludes people.
So Galadriel was probably deluded.

Tolkien has never used greatest to mean the most powerful. In every sense when he wants to talk about sheer innate power or superior ability he uses mightiest.

Earendil is the mightiest mariner.
Maglor is the second mightiest singer.
Feanor is the mightiest of the Noldor.
Beleg is the mightiest woodsman.
Ar-pharazon is the mightiest Numenor King
Hurin is the mightiest warrior of men.
Hurin is the mightest of men.

Greatest outright does not mean most powerful. Maeglin is the second greatest Elf in Gondolin, but Ecthelion and Glorfindel are mightier.

That aside Tolkien likes to explain his power.Elrond is a descendant of Melian and this means a lot according to Tolkien.

Elrond has the mightiest elven ring, Elrond is the most likely to be able to overthrow Sauron outside the Istari.

"Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three."

I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology (Elros and Elrond the two sons of Eärendel) I made him half-elven. Only in The Lord was he identified with the son of Eärendel, and so the great-grandson of Lúthien and Beren, a great power and a Ringholder.

It's Elrond 's magic which defeats the 9 all gathered together.

It is Erond, who holds out against Sauron in Imladris.

Frodo asks:
"What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?"
Gandalf replies:
"Yes, at present, until all else is conquered."

He is the greatest healer in Middle Earth.

Only Cirdan has greater foresight than him and Cirdan has this as a reward from the Valar.
This is what is said about Cirdan's foresight.
This does not include the Istari(who came from Valinor), but must include even Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn.

Notice it the fact that he has superior foresight to Elrond is especially highlighted.

When it comes to innate power all the quotes suggest that Elrond has the most power out of the non Maiar


We have been over this and I have shown how the High Kingship of the Noldor was only passed to males through a male line. Consequently it skipped Elrond, Fingolfin's heir through Turgon and went to Gil-galad the heir of Finarfin. By going to Gil-galad it skipped Galadriel and her daughter Celebrian.

With no one else left on Middle Earth, Arwen could claim the lands through both Finarfin and Fingolfin.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.

Firstly, once again, Luthien is not Arwen. No one praises Maedhros for Feanor's Silmarils. Why should anyone praise Arwen for Luthien's achievements? Also, I do not believe there is such a desire to get under the protection of the Crown of Gondor. Firstly, if anything, they now need less protection because Sauron's forces are destroyed; while there are still scattered orcs and the likes of them here and there, there is no organized war against them. Moreover, to my memory, the Elves have never in history been under the rule of Men, and I do not see a reason for them to crave it now. Legolas' Ithilien colony is an interesting case, but even here the motives are similar to Gimli's settlement of the Glittering Caves - it's not about whose rule/protection you are under, it's about the beauty of the place.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The more likely and logical answer I have already addressed. Arwen being the heir of Celeborn/Galadriel, the heir of Elrond and already a great Queen, would be able to grant protection to the elvish realms. In return they would recognise her sovereignty. Similar to the relation that Aragorn had with the King of Dale.

Firstly, Arwen would not be able to grant anything to anyone. She would be able to ask Aragorn to grant protection and whatnot.

But also, what you describe is not similar to Aragorn and the King of Dale. Aragorn didn't claim anything to do with Dale other than to be friends, and all the while I'm sure he would have sent an army there should the need arise. Yes, the two Kings recognize each other's position, but neither claims that he has power over the other because of the help he is granting. That would sound more of a Sauronian argument for the Haradrim/Easterlings - I'll give you [xyz] and you recognize me as your ruler!

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel, but that she was great in her own right and accomplished many great things. People too often dismiss the role she played.

Ah, seems like we're finally agreeing on something! I am not trying to prove that Arwen is a brainless duck. I think too that she has a power of her own. But I think that she is still lesser than Galadriel.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Well you would be wrong, because this was impossible according to Tolkien. That apart Sauron was a greater power than Galadriel and even if she had the One Ring she would be unable to overcome him.

No one not even the Valar could read the mind of another 'equal being'. .....One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendencies of mind and thought..

Galadriel had a special gift of being able to read people from their previous actions and tendencies. She could not invade Sauron's mind in the way you think. As the article says this is impossible for even the greatest of the Valar to do to the weakest of the Hobbits. Let alone Galadriel trying to do it to a greater power than hers.

I have no clue where you quote from, but in FOTR Galadriel clearly says: "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves." If this does not say that Galadriel knows Sauron's intentions and at least partially reads his thoughts, then the books aree written backwards. She then adds "And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!" There is clearly some mental battle going on here between Galadriel and Sauron, and so far Sauron is NOT winning.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.

I'm assuming you mean that Thranduil would accept Arwen if she proved herself capable. There are two problems with this argument. First and foremost, Arwen never proves herself a capable leader. She only rules second-hand from father and husband. Secondly, Thingol might acknowledge her as a great Elf, as the Queen of Gondor, but not as his own Queen. Why would he? Even if she's great and wonderful and all, there's no reason for him to all of a sudden give her his authority over his people. Moreover, as you yourself said, Elves do not just name a succesor, they choose one. The Elves of Mirkwood had little to nothing to do with Arwen for the past ever. So why would they just wake up one day and decide to follow her?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

Only as much, if not less, as Aragorn had rights to Arnor when he was the Chieftain of the Dunedain. Oh, it was certainly in his bloodline, but it was like a promise without a written contract. It's empty, other than of history/hope/etc. He has a certain power inherited by the same bloodline, but that is unrelated to his titles.

PS: I am typing as I'm reading along, and I just read that Legate says almost the exact same thing in almost the same words!

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Greatest outright does not mean most powerful. Maeglin is the second greatest Elf in Gondolin, but Ecthelion and Glorfindel are mightier.

But then again - powerful does not only have to refer to political power. And neither does greatness.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

With no one else left on Middle Earth, Arwen could claim the lands through both Finarfin and Fingolfin.

She could, but a) she wouldn't because Elves don't do things that way, they don't just claim lands that they have a vague and distant claim to, especially if it is not the people that chooses them; b) she might as well claim the Helcaraxe too with as much success; c) certainly there were people left in ME other than her, Thranduil now being the most prominent.

I would argue my points further, but I would just be repeating what has been said multiple times by other posters.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

See what I quoted there. The Wood-Elves would not have accepted Arwen as their queen simply because they did not accept anyone before. Not even Lúthien, for that matter. Lúthien, for the Avari, was some random elf behind the mountains in the First Age. Even for many of the Elves in Beleriand, there was no reason to flock to the small kingdom in Ossiriand after Lúthien and Beren had returned there briefly. No, we are told plainly, and I quote once again, the whole passage this time (emphasises mine):

A lot of the wood elves were made up of Sindar and Nandor elves, all of whom excepted the Lordship of Thingol.

Luthien never tried to claim any form of queenship. Even after the death of Thingol she did not try and claim the kingdom of Doriath. She instead left it for Dior.

It is clear that the Wood-Elves remained under Thranduil and were left to themselves, just as they always had been. I think you that at least that is pretty clear, completely objectively, also taking into account the behavior of the Avari in the past ages. Likewise, if you read in the Unfinished Tales "of Galadriel and Celeborn", there is pretty lengthy debate about how the Wood-Elves, also in Lórien, were not particularly inclined to accept "foreigners" and how Celeborn and Galadriel, out of respect, never really took the title of "King and Queen", but simply did what they had to, and were content with whatever respect the Elves gave them. Therefore, there is really no "inherited claim" for Lórien through Galadriel. Celeborn kept his post as the Lord of Galadhrim until a couple of years after Galadriel's departure, as we read, and after that, there likely was no other external ruler in Lórien. If Arwen came and claimed rulership over Lórien, it would likely have been mentioned in the text above, right? She would likely have - using your arguments, having the beauty of Lúthien which you said was so inspiring for all the Elves - cheered up the remaining Elves. Instead, we only read about sad remaining "few" Elves who are left in their solitude and gloom (and possibly eventually depart for the West).

Arwen was not a foreigner. She was the granddaughter of the their former Lords and had spent lived among them.

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.

To claim there was just a few elves defeats the purpose of Arwen being their Queen. What is the point of being Queen of a small group? Even the Kings of Arthedain gave up the title king, though they would have had numbers in the 100. Why would Arwen take it if there were so few elves left to accept her?

As for the first part, see above. The claim of Lórien is absolutely out of question if you read "Of Celeborn and Galadriel" in the UT. As for the second part, there was nothing about Lórien being a part of the kingdom. Certainly not part of the kingdom of Gondor&Rohan reunited!

If you read Tolkien's work you would see Aragorn is Lord of the West and held as leader of a confederation made up of several kingdoms.


Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a ‘market-garden job’ as you term it.


Then Bard II, Brand's son, became king in the Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dain's son, became the king under the mountain. They sent their ambassadors to the crowning of Elessar and their realms remained ever after, as long as they lasted, in friendship, with Gondor, and they under the crown and the protection of the King of the West.

Here we see Aragorn soon rules over an empire with other kings under even Dain and Bard excepting his protection. It is not hard to believe that Thrandiul and other elves would come to a similar agreement like Thorin, especially with the threats from the East.

I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe.
Nope, let's make it clear. This has nothing to do with Arwen or my perception of her. I certainly do not want to diminish her role. As for her role as the Queen of the reunited kingdom, I fully accept all of that. As for her personal powers or abilities, that is completely out of the scope of discussion for me, it has nothing to do with her claims of rulership or whatnot. I also fully accept the fact that, by bloodline, she had the right to all the Elven kingdoms formed by the Sindar/Teleri/Noldor and their descendants. What I am saying is that with all her right as being the last in the line of the Elven kings in Middle-Earth, the problem is that there were really no realms to rule. And no Elves to rule. The age of Elves was gone. They were not active in the world's affairs anyway, they had not been already for some time except for a random surge here and there. You certainly are aware that you cannot compare Arwen ruling over the remnants of Elves from Rivendell etc with the mighty kingdoms of the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin, Finrod, Thingol, etc etc.

Your problem is that you seem to be under the perception that thousands of elves could leave ME instantly. Where were the ships to take them? Even if they wished to leave straight away such a migration would take tens of years and by all accounts they did not want to leave immediately.

Aragorn we are told leads a confederation of united allies and many of them are under his crown. Stands to reason the Elves too would accept his protection and kingship. Whilst there is no reason to assume all the elves had left just 120 years after the ring was destroyed.

No, of course not. It took some years. But let's not forget that Elves had begun their departure already much much earlier, they had been leaving throughout the Third Age, and faster so around the time of the War of the Ring (that's what even the Hobbits notice, as we read in the first chapters of LotR). So there were pretty few Elves at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and still leaving. Not arriving anymore. Of course. And...

No there was still thousands of elves in Mirkwood. Without taking his full force, Thranduil can take 1000 elvish warriors to the battle of five armies. That alone means the population numbered in their thousands.

Then there is the population in Lorien, which seemed equally as numerous. But we learn these people soon leave.

What? Elven realms growing in size? In Fourth Age? Already in Third they were diminishing, heck, even in the Second already, so can you supply a quote to this? The only thing changing was the fact that Ithilien and Mirkwood was freed from the oppression of the Enemy, so the Elves could migrate there and wander around some new woods. If that's what you mean, then okay, but it certainly is not any "expansion", because they would leave half-empty woods behind them in their former homes.

If they were leaving half the woods empty it would hardly be an expansion and worth moving. We are told they actually remain largely untroubled.

Really? This sounds rather fabricated to me. Because what we hear is:
I think Elessar had pretty good times, given diplomatic efforts and all that. And as for the Elves, nobody would attack Lórien, for sure (not from such far away, nobody did it anyway throughout ages, even when the Easterlings attacked Calenardhon), since it was across the river and too far, but neither Mirkwood. First, why would anybody attack forest-Elves in forest which is not even good for conquering (seriously, why would you conquer a forest?). Second, once again pointing to the quote above, "in the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled" says it all, I think.

I don't think the untroubled line was talking about war. There was still danger from orcs, which you seem to have dismissed.

Once again, just repeating what I already said in this post, the Elves had been migrating throughout the Third Age, in larger numbers before the War of the Ring. And of course not instantly, but there were years. Aragorn and Arwen ruled for what, 120 years? Even if you had one ship leaving per year, and you'd have, okay, completely guessing now, even if I say 30 Elves per ship (which is probably much less than there would be), you'd have 1500 Elves gone during 50 years. And that is already about as much as there would have been in Middle-Earth by that point, I say. Likely, it would of course be much faster.

Why would they leave when we are told that whilst the Silvan folk of Lorien were leaving, the elves of Mirkwood extended their kingdom and had a colony in Ithilien? At the time of Hobbit a conservative estimate has the Elvish population of Mirkwood at around 5000.

"Many" is what? Once again: Rivendell. And??? Grey Havens, possibly? (They were probably empty soon, but even if not, nothing much there.) Ithilien, though that'd be via Aragorn, not via her Elven heritage, since the Elves there were Wood-Elves and Ithilien of course was never an Elven kingdom before. That's it. Lórien - not, Mirkwood - certainly not. And even if you managed to argue for Lórien, it is not "many" Elven lands. It is one valley, one city, and okay, Lórien could be considered a "land" in its full sense. But given that Arwen did not have claim to it (or: did not claim it, as it seems evident from the text), anyway...

The "Elven lands" had been sunk for over two Ages by the time Arwen became the Queen.

Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

Again you only focus on how Aragorn was King of Arnor and Gondor, but he was Lord of the West and had many lands under his protection and crown. Tolkien outright tells us he was an Imperial Power. Arwen is called Queen of Elves. Considering both Dale and The Lonely Mountain accept Aragorn's authority, I fail to see how hard it is to believe so did the remaining elves. Especially since we are again explicitly told she was Queen of Elves and Men.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.

So why didn't he accept Elrond already ages ago? The question is still the same. Why would the Wood-Elves suddenly change their thinking?

To claim there was just a few elves defeats the purpose of Arwen being their Queen. What is the point of being Queen of a small group? Even the Kings of Arthedain gave up the title king, though they would have had numbers in the 100. Why would Arwen take it if there were so few elves left to accept her?

Well exactly. That's why I am saying that the title does not make any sense. It is there only as a remider, so that we, as readers, are aware "hey, by the way, you know that even though she had like 100 'subjects', she still was the Queen of Elves?". Also, what supports this is the fact that Tolkien does not mention it anywhere else but in this one sentence in the Appendices. It was not important, because being the Queen of Elves meant being the queen of a hundred Elves (who are pretty much free anyway).

Here we see Aragorn soon rules over an empire with other kings under even Dain and Bard excepting his protection. It is not hard to believe that Thrandiul and other elves would come to a similar agreement like Thorin, especially with the threats from the East.

That is fine. But there is difference between being subject to someone and being an ally to someone, or under his protection. The Elven realms were NOT part of the kingdom.

Your problem is that you seem to be under the perception that thousands of elves could leave ME instantly. Where were the ships to take them? Even if they wished to leave straight away such a migration would take tens of years and by all accounts they did not want to leave immediately.

What "instantly"? Please reread my post. The Elves had been leaving throughout years during the Third Age, and further on during the Fourth.

Aragorn we are told leads a confederation of united allies and many of them are under his crown. Stands to reason the Elves too would accept his protection and kingship. Whilst there is no reason to assume all the elves had left just 120 years after the ring was destroyed.

Not all, but almost all. Most importantly, basically all the former Sindar etc. would have left. Those who would have remained would have been the Wood-Elves. And they, as I have argued earlier, are not part of the "inheritance" of Arwen's "queenship", since they never were subjects to any Elven kings of old.

No there was still thousands of elves in Mirkwood. Without taking his full force, Thranduil can take 1000 elvish warriors to the battle of five armies. That alone means the population numbered in their thousands.

Sure, sure. But the Elves of Mirkwood are not our concern. They are Avari. They are on their own.

Then there is the population in Lorien, which seemed equally as numerous. But we learn these people soon leave.

Exactly. And so do those in Rivendell (and Havens).

Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

What Eregion, please? Eregion was empty since the time Sauron sacked it ages ago.

As for Lindon, true, we are not told how many Elves lived there. However, it is strongly implied that the Elves living along the shore were slowly leaving throughout ages, as those in Grey Havens. So I certainly wouldn't imagine something like suddenly discovering another couple of thousand Elves in Lindon who could become a part of Arwen's "realm". I stand by the original thought of a few hundred mariners, only waiting to call it off and eventually leave.

Again you only focus on how Aragorn was King of Arnor and Gondor, but he was Lord of the West and had many lands under his protection and crown. Tolkien outright tells us he was an Imperial Power. Arwen is called Queen of Elves. Considering both Dale and The Lonely Mountain accept Aragorn's authority, I fail to see how hard it is to believe so did the remaining elves. Especially since we are again explicitly told she was Queen of Elves and Men.

Okay, I think with this I finally understood where you are coming from. But that is pure speculation. And even then, once again, this was the Age of Men. Being the Queen of Elves really meant nothing in Middle-Earth anymore, to put it bluntly.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So why didn't he accept Elrond already ages ago? The question is still the same. Why would the Wood-Elves suddenly change their thinking?

Who said Elrond wanted to be king? Did Elrond even have the means to be a king? You might as well as why Luthien did not become Queen of Doriath.

That apart circumstances change. Being united to a great confederation is a great pull. Just look at how keen people are to join the European Union.

Well exactly. That's why I am saying that the title does not make any sense. It is there only as a remider, so that we, as readers, are aware "hey, by the way, you know that even though she had like 100 'subjects', she still was the Queen of Elves?". Also, what supports this is the fact that Tolkien does not mention it anywhere else but in this one sentence in the Appendices. It was not important, because being the Queen of Elves meant being the queen of a hundred Elves (who are pretty much free anyway).

There is much Tolkien does not mention except in the Appendices. This was a development that would begin in the fourth age. It is still an idea Tolkien retains and we have further evidence of other kingdoms willingly joining .

That is fine. But there is difference between being subject to someone and being an ally to someone, or under his protection. The Elven realms were NOT part of the kingdom.

Well the relationships between each kingdom and Aragorn seemed depended on what they wished. Rohan and a lot of the Shire were not under the crown, but Dale was and Umbar. You are too keen to dismiss Arwen's royal title and ignore the many other examples of kingdoms desiring to be linked to King of the West.

What "instantly"? Please reread my post. The Elves had been leaving throughout years during the Third Age, and further on during the Fourth.

Even at the end of the Third Age, Mirkwood alone had thousands of elves. As I said before a conservative estimate would be around 5,000.

Not all, but almost all. Most importantly, basically all the former Sindar etc. would have left. Those who would have remained would have been the Wood-Elves. And they, as I have argued earlier, are not part of the "inheritance" of Arwen's "queenship", since they never were subjects to any Elven kings of old.

Why would all the Sindar have left? As I said it would take perhaps a 100 years for all the elves to leave and this was if they wanted to leave immediately after the end of the fourth age.

The Sindar kings of the wood elves are in a similar position to the Numenoreans in ME, when Elendil arrived. What did the Prince of Dol Amroth do when Elendil had established a kingdom? He accepted Elendil's position as the faithful heir of Elros and consequently ruler of the Numenoreans. Why wouldn't the Sindar now that Arwen was Queen of a great kingdom?

Even if Eregion and Lindon were emptying, the land was hers by right. Aragorn was a just king and would not expand into land, which did not belong to him. What other kings did after was there business, but Aragorn would only take lands, that wished to join or were his by right.

Sure, sure. But the Elves of Mirkwood are not our concern. They are Avari. They are on their own.

Not of all of them, there would be a few Sindar and Nandor amongst them.

Exactly. And so do those in Rivendell (and Havens).

Yes, but not immediately and many would remain until the death of Aragorn.

What Eregion, please? Eregion was empty since the time Sauron sacked it ages ago.

Yes, but Arwen also inherited the lands, which were hers by right.

As for Lindon, true, we are not told how many Elves lived there. However, it is strongly implied that the Elves living along the shore were slowly leaving throughout ages, as those in Grey Havens. So I certainly wouldn't imagine something like suddenly discovering another couple of thousand Elves in Lindon who could become a part of Arwen's "realm". I stand by the original thought of a few hundred mariners, only waiting to call it off and eventually leave.

There was enough power in Lindon to withstand Sauron for a while, even at the end of the third age. There was probably a few thousand elves still living there.

Okay, I think with this I finally understood where you are coming from. But that is pure speculation. And even then, once again, this was the Age of Men. Being the Queen of Elves really meant nothing in Middle-Earth anymore, to put it bluntly.

If being the Queen of Elves meant nothing, then why was Arwen given the title, when Galadriel and Elrond never took royal titles? It must have had some significance and we can see that other kingdoms including even dwarves wished to be under the crown.