Game Thread - WW XCIIX - The Meaning Of Death

[the phantom]

Well, I had hoped people would be around, but ah well... I'll check back in before I fall asleep at least.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Interesting point - a "super-early Amandil reveal" could give Elendil a public voice for his dreams, too, couldn't it?

[Nerwen]

What? Tp with a masterplan! Who'd a thunk?

Originally Posted by Shasta

Interesting point - a "super-early Amandil reveal" could give Elendil a public voice for his dreams, too, couldn't it?

Yes, that could work. And it might force the wolves to try and kill him, too, which would get rid of the main drawback to his revealing.

Originally Posted by Morsul

and 13 players? That means if we do really bad and don't catch any of them we have 7 day/nights. Not much time.

Actually that would be heaps of time– better than any village in WW history– but I think your calculations are a little out, there, Morsul.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What? Tp with a masterplan! Who'd a thunk?

Ever predictable Phantom....

Originally Posted by Shasta

a "super-early Amandil reveal" could give Elendil a public voice for his dreams, too, couldn't it?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, that could work. And it might force the wolves to try and kill him, too, which would get rid of the main drawback to his revealing.

Ooo, now we're talking.

So- Amandil reveals, Anarion protects him, Elendil sends him a dream tonight, tomorrow Amandil reveals the result, then the night after the King's Men are forced to decide whether to kill him and hand an Ordo a trusted gifted and miss a chance to kill the other Gifteds....

Any drawbacks to that?

And how about my Elendil plan you two? Do you see any drawbacks to everyone randomly listing 3 "guilty" names each day thus providing Elendil a clear indication on whether his dream recipient found his dream target to be guilty?

To use the two of you as an example, Shasta is Elendil and selects Nerwen to dream of Phantom. She finds me to be innocent (but of course ). So the following day she (along with everyone else) posts a 3-name Elendil list- in her case let's say she posts Shasta-Inzil-Morsul.

So Elendil (Shasta) looks at her list and notices that his dream target (Phantom) is not on it, thus clearly indicating that- so long as Nerwen is not a lying baddie, Phantom is innocent.

There's no way the baddies could really spot anything under that system, correct? They certainly couldn't trace it to Elendil, but frankly I don't think they could even spot the dream recipient on a given day, as each person's guilt-list would randomly change every day and there would be bound to be countless correct answers on a given day.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Actually that would be heaps of time– better than any village in WW history– but I think your calculations are a little out, there, Morsul.

Yeah- if I'm not mistaken 3 consecutive incorrect lynches will pretty well kill us barring intervention from Gifteds. With the Ranger and a Healer out there though I'm thinking we'll have 4 chances to be wrong.

[the phantom]

Nighty-night, people. Hope to read your thoughts early tomorrow.

[Mänwe]

Good morning, ah looks as though a number of us haven't woken yet. Well if at the moment we're to be building a consensus on phantom's dream list then i'll not object, I don't see any drawbacks.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by tp

So- Amandil reveals, Anarion protects him, Elendil sends him a dream tonight, tomorrow Amandil reveals the result, then the night after the King's Men are forced to decide whether to kill him and hand an Ordo a trusted gifted and miss a chance to kill the other Gifteds....

Any drawbacks to that?

Well, it does effectively give the King's Men a free shot at anyone else toNight– but that probably doesn't matter much at this stage of the game.

Originally Posted by tp

And how about my Elendil plan you two? Do you see any drawbacks to everyone randomly listing 3 "guilty" names each day thus providing Elendil a clear indication on whether his dream recipient found his dream target to be guilty?

To use the two of you as an example, Shasta is Elendil and selects Nerwen to dream of Phantom. She finds me to be innocent (but of course ). So the following day she (along with everyone else) posts a 3-name Elendil list- in her case let's say she posts Shasta-Inzil-Morsul.

So Elendil (Shasta) looks at her list and notices that his dream target (Phantom) is not on it, thus clearly indicating that- so long as Nerwen is not a lying baddie, Phantom is innocent.

There's no way the baddies could really spot anything under that system, correct? They certainly couldn't trace it to Elendil, but frankly I don't think they could even spot the dream recipient on a given day, as each person's guilt-list would randomly change every day and there would be bound to be countless correct answers on a given day.

...unless hardly anybody posts that Day, in which case the dream-recipient would be left without cover– had you thought of that?

[Mänwe]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

...unless hardly anybody posts that Day, in which case the dream-recipient would be left without cover– had you thought of that?

But people who don't post during the day run the risk of modfire no? I thought he'd be making the assumption that even if someone posts just the once then it should include this list.

~~

Boro, the point of tp's idea would be a way of communicating the role of the "dreamt" to Elendil without the "dreamer" and "dreamt" being given away too easily. This chain you speak of is fine in the event of Amandil revealing himself- and are you assuming that he then explicitly states the role of the "dreamt"? That makes that person an immediate target for the Kings Men and killing them (in the case that it was an innocent) off in the night would then break the chain resulting in Elendil having to make a stab in the dark as to who he chooses to send a dream to next.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, it does effectively give the King's Men a free shot at anyone else toNight– but that probably doesn't matter much at this stage of the game.

Aye it would give the KM one free crack to kill Elendil and spoil the whole point of Amandil revealing. But with the chance to set up a system where Elendil can trust the dreams being relayed back to him, I think it would still be worth it.

If Amandil doesn't reveal it frees up Anarion to protect whoever, but it leaves Elendil with no basis of knowing if the people receiving the dreams can be trusted. Worst case scenario in the event of Elendil gets killed anyway is we're basically left with nothing.

If Amandil does reveal, and Elendil does go ahead sending the next dream to Amandil, Anarion would be pretty much obligated to protect Amandil and ensure the dream is "safe." This leaves the KM one free crack, and in worst case scenario they kill Elendil but we go to the next day having a trusted Amandil with one reliable dream. And in the event they don't get Elendil, then it sets up the system to get a chain of relaying trustworthy information back to Elendil.

Edit: crossed with Morsul and Nerwen

[Boromir88]

Amandil revealing, I think, would optimize his role. Since for all intents and purposes he's an ordo, but if he dies then the next in Amandil's line (at this point it would be Elendil) would be revealed to a randomly selected ordo.

The main difficulty is Elendil doesn't know if the person he selects to give the dream to each night is trustworthy. However, if Amandil were to reveal now, then it would set up a nice line of reveals that Elendil could trust.

Because going with the phantom's plan. If Amandil revealed today, and Anarion protects Amandil at night. Elendil could trust Amandil revealing the role of the person dreamed the next day. If it's a KM then perfect. But if it's not, say if Elendil picked someone who was revealed innocent to Amandil. Since the dream would go to Amandil, Elendil would know to trust it, and if the dream turns up innocent, then Elendil could send the next dream to that innocent, again knowing he could trust the result. And the process continues from there, setting up a way for Elendil to trust the information.

I like it.

As far as everyone making an "Elendil's list" (if the dreamed person is not on it = innocent. If dreamed person is on it = KM), I don't see much of a purpose. Perhaps it would be good today for everyone to do. Since only Elendil knows the person he picked and then to whom it would be revealed to. So then, Elendil will just have to decide whether to trust that person. However, if we go ahead with the Amandil reveal plan, then I don't see the benefit of continuing with everyone making an randomly generated "Elendil list." Since that, as I said above would set up a system that Elendil could trust completely.

It's not that I see any harm of it, but more of a hassle without any real benefit. I mean, I could see that I wouldn't be the only one who would turn Bombadil and in complete earnest just forget to make the list on some days. I suppose it would cover the tracks back to Elendil, but we'd already be setting up a track back to Elendil with Amandil revealing today and Elendil then sending Amandil the next person...right? The problem for the KM would be having a known and trusted innocent in Amandil, possibly Amandil giving another known and trusted innocent the next day (or a KM to lynch), as well as trying to find a way to break the chain, which as far as I can tell, could only be achieved by killing Elendil immediately.

I don't have anything against everyone doing it (it should be done today), but the question is would everyone remember to make the list for Elendil every day? And would someone necessarily be a KM if they forget? Seems like more of a hassle that could cause unintentional problems.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And how about my Elendil plan you two? Do you see any drawbacks to everyone randomly listing 3 "guilty" names each day thus providing Elendil a clear indication on whether his dream recipient found his dream target to be guilty?

To use the two of you as an example, Shasta is Elendil and selects Nerwen to dream of Phantom. She finds me to be innocent (but of course ). So the following day she (along with everyone else) posts a 3-name Elendil list- in her case let's say she posts Shasta-Inzil-Morsul.

So Elendil (Shasta) looks at her list and notices that his dream target (Phantom) is not on it, thus clearly indicating that- so long as Nerwen is not a lying baddie, Phantom is innocent.

Ok now I understand, I was immensely confused for a few posts, thanks for outlining that.

I think it's worth a shot. and if everyone posted a list it would hide the recipient. Clever, Clever.

and Nerwen I went with the worst possible scenario, I certainly hope we have more time! I'm off to work for now but I shall return in a while.