Game Thread - WW XCIIX - The Meaning Of Death

[the phantom]

Time to look at the roles...

KING'S MEN- A standard wolf-pack here, with the usual behaviors to look for and bluffs they can use.

AMANDIL- Essentially an Ordo with the added bonus of potentially being able to prove himself through a reveal. If the other Gifteds die quickly his "power" becomes rather useless, but early on it's a nice consolation if he's offed to know that some Ordo will know to trust some Gifted.

Frankly it makes me wonder if Amandil shouldn't just be super bold right from the start. I mean, that way we won't lynch him and if the baddies kill him they know that the result will be Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion surviving the night plus a random Ordo will know to trust one of them due to the death-power.

Thoughts from others on an extremely early Amandil reveal?

ELENDIL- Now this role is very interesting. He'll easily be able to find out what his dream recipient thinks of his dream target, but he won't know whether to trust the recipient as he very well could've handed information to a Baddie.

As far as ensuring that Elendil gets the opportunity to see what his dream-recipient thinks of his dream-target, that's relatively easy to set up- everyone simply say "these 3 are evil" and list 3 names. Elendil then looks at the names provided by the recipient and if his dream-target isn't there then the recipient is saying "they're good" and if they are there he's saying "they're evil".

This process can be repeated every day and right off hand I don't believe it would be particularly easy for the King's Men to trace the individual dreams or Elendil himself based on the lists, as the dream will originate from a different source every day and could be any of listed or unlisted names.

Thoughts on this plan? If no one can show that it would harm the village's chances I think we ought to agree to it as soon as possible, as it seems to be one of the few obvious constructive things we can do on Day 1.

ISILDUR- Now he has a straightforward and quite useful power- at a time of his choosing he can nullify the lynch! I think it's unlikely the power will be used early on unless he is defending himself or a dreamed-of Goodie if he's so lucky as to receive a dream. If he can stay alive to the point where reveals are made and suspicions are easier to come by etc. he could truly rescue the village from defeat. On the other hand if he's night-killed without using the power it'd be a total waste, so it's not as if he can say for certain that sitting on his power is best.

Or should he just bank on Day 1 being most likely an innocent and spare us the initial lynch right off the bat playing the percentages? Thoughts?

ANARION- The standard Ranger, here, except that there is a twice-per-game limit set on him. If not for that then the obvious percentage play on Night 2 would be self-protect, but if he survives the first couple days then still having a pair of self-protects in his pocket would be darn useful. This would also be another reason for an early Amandil reveal- with Anarion still alive the King's Men might feel a need to silence the trusted Amandil but they'd know the Ranger might be hovering over him. Thoughts on this?

[the phantom]

Well, I had hoped people would be around, but ah well... I'll check back in before I fall asleep at least.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Interesting point - a "super-early Amandil reveal" could give Elendil a public voice for his dreams, too, couldn't it?

[Nerwen]

What? Tp with a masterplan! Who'd a thunk?

Originally Posted by Shasta

Interesting point - a "super-early Amandil reveal" could give Elendil a public voice for his dreams, too, couldn't it?

Yes, that could work. And it might force the wolves to try and kill him, too, which would get rid of the main drawback to his revealing.

Originally Posted by Morsul

and 13 players? That means if we do really bad and don't catch any of them we have 7 day/nights. Not much time.

Actually that would be heaps of time– better than any village in WW history– but I think your calculations are a little out, there, Morsul.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What? Tp with a masterplan! Who'd a thunk?

Ever predictable Phantom....

Originally Posted by Shasta

a "super-early Amandil reveal" could give Elendil a public voice for his dreams, too, couldn't it?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, that could work. And it might force the wolves to try and kill him, too, which would get rid of the main drawback to his revealing.

Ooo, now we're talking.

So- Amandil reveals, Anarion protects him, Elendil sends him a dream tonight, tomorrow Amandil reveals the result, then the night after the King's Men are forced to decide whether to kill him and hand an Ordo a trusted gifted and miss a chance to kill the other Gifteds....

Any drawbacks to that?

And how about my Elendil plan you two? Do you see any drawbacks to everyone randomly listing 3 "guilty" names each day thus providing Elendil a clear indication on whether his dream recipient found his dream target to be guilty?

To use the two of you as an example, Shasta is Elendil and selects Nerwen to dream of Phantom. She finds me to be innocent (but of course ). So the following day she (along with everyone else) posts a 3-name Elendil list- in her case let's say she posts Shasta-Inzil-Morsul.

So Elendil (Shasta) looks at her list and notices that his dream target (Phantom) is not on it, thus clearly indicating that- so long as Nerwen is not a lying baddie, Phantom is innocent.

There's no way the baddies could really spot anything under that system, correct? They certainly couldn't trace it to Elendil, but frankly I don't think they could even spot the dream recipient on a given day, as each person's guilt-list would randomly change every day and there would be bound to be countless correct answers on a given day.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Actually that would be heaps of time– better than any village in WW history– but I think your calculations are a little out, there, Morsul.

Yeah- if I'm not mistaken 3 consecutive incorrect lynches will pretty well kill us barring intervention from Gifteds. With the Ranger and a Healer out there though I'm thinking we'll have 4 chances to be wrong.

[the phantom]

Nighty-night, people. Hope to read your thoughts early tomorrow.

[Mänwe]

Good morning, ah looks as though a number of us haven't woken yet. Well if at the moment we're to be building a consensus on phantom's dream list then i'll not object, I don't see any drawbacks.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by tp

So- Amandil reveals, Anarion protects him, Elendil sends him a dream tonight, tomorrow Amandil reveals the result, then the night after the King's Men are forced to decide whether to kill him and hand an Ordo a trusted gifted and miss a chance to kill the other Gifteds....

Any drawbacks to that?

Well, it does effectively give the King's Men a free shot at anyone else toNight– but that probably doesn't matter much at this stage of the game.

Originally Posted by tp

And how about my Elendil plan you two? Do you see any drawbacks to everyone randomly listing 3 "guilty" names each day thus providing Elendil a clear indication on whether his dream recipient found his dream target to be guilty?

To use the two of you as an example, Shasta is Elendil and selects Nerwen to dream of Phantom. She finds me to be innocent (but of course ). So the following day she (along with everyone else) posts a 3-name Elendil list- in her case let's say she posts Shasta-Inzil-Morsul.

So Elendil (Shasta) looks at her list and notices that his dream target (Phantom) is not on it, thus clearly indicating that- so long as Nerwen is not a lying baddie, Phantom is innocent.

There's no way the baddies could really spot anything under that system, correct? They certainly couldn't trace it to Elendil, but frankly I don't think they could even spot the dream recipient on a given day, as each person's guilt-list would randomly change every day and there would be bound to be countless correct answers on a given day.

...unless hardly anybody posts that Day, in which case the dream-recipient would be left without cover– had you thought of that?

[Boromir88]

Amandil revealing, I think, would optimize his role. Since for all intents and purposes he's an ordo, but if he dies then the next in Amandil's line (at this point it would be Elendil) would be revealed to a randomly selected ordo.

The main difficulty is Elendil doesn't know if the person he selects to give the dream to each night is trustworthy. However, if Amandil were to reveal now, then it would set up a nice line of reveals that Elendil could trust.

Because going with the phantom's plan. If Amandil revealed today, and Anarion protects Amandil at night. Elendil could trust Amandil revealing the role of the person dreamed the next day. If it's a KM then perfect. But if it's not, say if Elendil picked someone who was revealed innocent to Amandil. Since the dream would go to Amandil, Elendil would know to trust it, and if the dream turns up innocent, then Elendil could send the next dream to that innocent, again knowing he could trust the result. And the process continues from there, setting up a way for Elendil to trust the information.

I like it.

As far as everyone making an "Elendil's list" (if the dreamed person is not on it = innocent. If dreamed person is on it = KM), I don't see much of a purpose. Perhaps it would be good today for everyone to do. Since only Elendil knows the person he picked and then to whom it would be revealed to. So then, Elendil will just have to decide whether to trust that person. However, if we go ahead with the Amandil reveal plan, then I don't see the benefit of continuing with everyone making an randomly generated "Elendil list." Since that, as I said above would set up a system that Elendil could trust completely.

It's not that I see any harm of it, but more of a hassle without any real benefit. I mean, I could see that I wouldn't be the only one who would turn Bombadil and in complete earnest just forget to make the list on some days. I suppose it would cover the tracks back to Elendil, but we'd already be setting up a track back to Elendil with Amandil revealing today and Elendil then sending Amandil the next person...right? The problem for the KM would be having a known and trusted innocent in Amandil, possibly Amandil giving another known and trusted innocent the next day (or a KM to lynch), as well as trying to find a way to break the chain, which as far as I can tell, could only be achieved by killing Elendil immediately.

I don't have anything against everyone doing it (it should be done today), but the question is would everyone remember to make the list for Elendil every day? And would someone necessarily be a KM if they forget? Seems like more of a hassle that could cause unintentional problems.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And how about my Elendil plan you two? Do you see any drawbacks to everyone randomly listing 3 "guilty" names each day thus providing Elendil a clear indication on whether his dream recipient found his dream target to be guilty?

To use the two of you as an example, Shasta is Elendil and selects Nerwen to dream of Phantom. She finds me to be innocent (but of course ). So the following day she (along with everyone else) posts a 3-name Elendil list- in her case let's say she posts Shasta-Inzil-Morsul.

So Elendil (Shasta) looks at her list and notices that his dream target (Phantom) is not on it, thus clearly indicating that- so long as Nerwen is not a lying baddie, Phantom is innocent.

Ok now I understand, I was immensely confused for a few posts, thanks for outlining that.

I think it's worth a shot. and if everyone posted a list it would hide the recipient. Clever, Clever.

and Nerwen I went with the worst possible scenario, I certainly hope we have more time! I'm off to work for now but I shall return in a while.