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#1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 95
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Just to be clear, I did not start this thread with an intent to discuss the merits of religious belief. I made my own perspective clear because I wanted to be up-front about where I was coming from, and because this thread is in part about how our personally-held ideologies inform our reading.
Morthoron's post regarding my initial post was disingenuous, not to mention hysterical. That I have consistently posted on several themes in the past (Debates regarding The Children of Hurin, for example, or antagonistic critiques of Tolkien) should in no way invalidate my right to continue posting on the same or similar themes. I'm interested in morality in fiction and how writers instantiate moral perspectives in their fiction. I've often found that CoH is an interesting vehicle through which to discuss Tolkien's morality, his attitude toward religion, divine providence and other themes. I'm merely interested, not "obsessive". Furthermore, I'm not arguing, as some seem to think, that Tolkien's work IS a Christian text, merely that some commentators on Tolkien have argued that in their monographs (see Joseph Pearce, for example). My motivation for making this thread was to ask why that might be the case. My "list" of Christian beliefs and dogmas should presented in the first post should not be interpreted as exhaustive. As I explained there, not all Christians will believe all those propositions, some will believe more 'metaphorical' variants (e.g. that Adam and Eve didn't literally exist) and others might not believe any. I reiterate: the point was just to establish a baseline: many Christians have believed some of these propositions. The most important of those relates specifically to Jesus, and his supposed mission to redeem humanity. If Christian commentators argue that Tolkien's work is, at its core, a Christian work, then surely it should bear some resemblance to this most central Christian story. Is Eru a lawgiver, or merely a desitic God? If so how does that impact on, for example, Joseph Pearce's argument that takes Tolkien's Catholic credentials very seriously. Are Tolkien's characters bound by an externally derived moral code, or do they, as Brian Rosebury argues, merely conform to a kind of secular "moral consensus" which most of Tolkien's readers will agree on (Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon: 147)? Does "sin" exist in Middle-earth, and do its denizens therefore require atonement on the Christain sort? I would have thought that these are not negligible or inappropriate questions to ask, given that so many writers have lauded Tolkien's Christian credentials. Last edited by tumhalad2; 11-26-2012 at 11:35 PM. |
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#2 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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You've made a career here of posting disparaging reviews of Tolkien's work, and I am being disingenuous? That, my friend, is humorous, if only in a pathetically ironic manner. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in using the term "obsessive", because you perhaps did not see the pattern you had set. As you readily admit to this pattern as a planned and permanent avocation, then I withdraw the word "obsessive" and will, in future, use an altogether more appropriate epithet. I am not referring to just a few posts in which you criticize Tolkien's work in a pejorative manner, I am talking about almost the entire corpus of the threads you've started. This blatant and seemingly endless reiteration of contempt is readily discernible to anyone who reviews your posting history. It is also ironic that someone who clearly states "I not only disbelieve in any god, I also find many forms of theism morally objectionable", should dwell on Christian morality in the works of an avowed and ardent Catholic like Tolkien. You profess to love his literature, yet you make every effort to denigrate, belittle, undermine and obfuscate it. So who, then, is being disingenuous?
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 11-27-2012 at 12:28 PM. |
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#3 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,491
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Personally, I would not say that Tolkien's work is Christian (see post 12 of this thread for my explanation). At any rate, it cannot be defined as "Christian" because it is not only Christian. However, for some people "most" is enough and "all" is not a requirement, so they have no problem with this. With the same success one can call The Sil and COH "Norse". There are certainly many parallels and similarities - but the problem is that they are still not 100% Norse. You can't write 100% Norse mythology unless you are creating the Norse mythology, and living it, and etc. Tolkien created Tolkien mythology; hence, he wrote Tolkien. You can't write with only one influence; there will always be others that creep up, even subconsciously. Quote:
Religious stories / mythology are but the outside walls of what this people believes in and holds in value. Since before I knew how to read myself, I was fascinated with Greek mythology. It used to be just names and fun stories. But after a few more years of reading and thinking I saw that a story that it merely "fun" because of its plot also gives insight into the culture of these people, into their mentality, customs, beliefs, values, prejudices, and etc. Jesus, Mary, Adam, Eve, and etc are only the plot. It may or may not be mirrored in Tolkien's work, depending on how you perceive it yourself. But the message they carry is that of peace, wisdom, charity, humility, patience, and etc. I don't think you can deny that at least one of these appears in Tolkien's work.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#4 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 479
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I think your Christ figures and mine make sense only in the same way that a pagan figure who is resurrected could be called a Christ figure meaning that the figure parallels in part the story of Christ. But all these characters are also both more and less than that. They are themselves, mainly and chiefly: for example Aragorn is the chief hunter of his age who, like Muḥammad, also becomes a great king in his own lifetime, and who marries an elf-woman as does the similar Dietrich von Bern to the Elf queen Virginal in one tale, and who dies by what amounts to suicide. Quote:
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Considering that Ban’s death left his wife and infant son abandoned in the wild, I see the earlier version as more moral, that Ban died from what we would now call a stroke and so was blameless in his own death rather than that he would rather die and abandon wife and child then live without his castle. Quote:
Also Elves believed that mostly death was not a permanent end of their lives, but merely the beginning of a temporary imprisonment in Mandos. Quote:
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Last edited by jallanite; 11-29-2012 at 09:50 PM. |
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