Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[William Cloud Hicklin]

From Letter No. 151

* It is not made explicit how [Arwen] could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race ‘sailing West’ was not permitted, and any exception required ‘authority’, and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become ‘mortal’. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo’s : both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron.

As for Elladan and Elrohir, they certainly remained for a certain time after Elrond sailed; Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that after Galadriel left, and Lothlorien started to fade, Celeborn went to Rivendell to live with them, for a while.

The impression I get is that here as with so many other matters around the edges Tolkien never really made up his mind, and even his 'definitive' statements may conceal complexity when expressed elliptically or briefly. Suffice it to say that Elrond's children got to make the Choice at some point, but it's unclear when.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

As for Elladan and Elrohir, they certainly remained for a certain time after Elrond sailed; Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that after Galadriel left, and Lothlorien started to fade, Celeborn went to Rivendell to live with them, for a while.

That's from Appendix B.

But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn...went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond.

It doesn't say that the choice had been made one way or the other, but isn't it still possible they had chosen, and had decided on mortality?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

From Letter No. 151

* It is not made explicit how [Arwen] could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race ‘sailing West’ was not permitted, and any exception required ‘authority’, and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become ‘mortal’. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo’s : both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron.

As for Elladan and Elrohir, they certainly remained for a certain time after Elrond sailed; Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that after Galadriel left, and Lothlorien started to fade, Celeborn went to Rivendell to live with them, for a while.

The impression I get is that here as with so many other matters around the edges Tolkien never really made up his mind, and even his 'definitive' statements may conceal complexity when expressed elliptically or briefly. Suffice it to say that Elrond's children got to make the Choice at some point, but it's unclear when.

That letter given even more to my question (in another thread) about just how Gimli gets the right to go sail west (or for that matter Sam if the family rumors are true) At that point there is NO one who could give that sort of authrority still in ME (unless you believe that Radagast, even though he failed and is not going back himself, still has, as an emmisary of the Valar, enough authority to give others that permission. Not likely).
And another question that arises, how much of Elronds bloodline to you have to be to keep the choice. Elrond himself chooses to stay immortal, and his children all get to keep the choice, so obviously the choice he made did not effect his children (i.e. he chose immortality, so they were stuck with it). But if that was the case, why was the choice not given to Elros's children. The moment Elros chooses a mortal life as Tar-Minyutar, it seems that his choice applies not only to him, but his decendents (i.e. we never hear of any of his sons being informed that they could choose to be immortal). Granted it may have something to do with bloodlines (Elronds kids are 3/4 elf while Elros's are only 1/4) or Elros's sons may have considered living a mortal life as Kings of Numenor as preferable to an immortal one as a mere elf noble, but it does seem a little unfair to them (especially if Elros was never told his choice would so affect them, which I don't think he was).

[Mithalwen]

For the sons of Elrond, the comment "stayed a while" could equally imply that they then left. There may have been a grace period, some sort of mopping up operation perhaps. Arwen of course had made her choice prior to Elrond's departure and having thrown her lot in with Aragorn she had made her choice for ever - else Elrond might have remained the trivial in Elven terms span until Aragorn died.

As for the children of Elros not being given the choice, well while they of course had majority mortal blood and married mortals, I think it was more of a case of the Gift of Iluvatar being too precious to be denied anyone who was remotely entitled to it.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

As for the children of Elros not being given the choice, well while they of course had majority mortal blood and married mortals, I think it was more of a case of the Gift of Iluvatar being too precious to be denied anyone who was remotely entitled to it.

Well, if the gift is regarded so precios, then it's a little odd that Elrond and his progeny get the choice in the first place; seems to me that under that logic, the true reward would be to make both brothers and all of their spawn mortal, whether they wanted to be or not. I don't see that giving them the choice denies them the gift; it just gives them the option of not accepting it if they don't want to.
To me, it almost seems as if they are implying that choosing mortality is always the "right" choice, and immortality, always the "wrong". Make the "wrong" and you descendent's are given another chance to make the "right" one. On the other hand, make the "right" one, and you children are freed from having to make the decsion themselves; your choice already saved them. There may be a strain of Tolkein's Catholicism in this, i.e. the concept that death is not only a blessing, but the greatest blessing of all, and the sooner it happens, the greater that blessing is. Conversely, immortality on this earth is actually a curse, since living forever denies you your heavenly rewards forever (i.e. the root of the legend of the Wandering Jew).

[Mithalwen]

I think it is linked to his Catholicism but I don't follow how you can say that enforcing the choice which is no choice is the same as offering the choice to those who have majority immortal blood. Free will is an important concept in Catholicism after all. I think it is a result of us as mortals envying immortality while the Valar who offered the choice are conscious of the burden of immortality.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

For those of you who don't know this, if I recall correctly, the Appendices did not appear in the first printing of Return of the King.

The Appendices appeared in the first edition of The Lord of the Rings and in the Ace paperback edition, though not as much material as Tolkien originally wished to include. These are the same Appendices that appear again in the second edition with only a very small number of modifications and some additions, and these are the Appendices that still appear with a few corrections.

It is untrue to say that the Appendices did not appear in the first printing of The Return of the King.

It is true that some of the material originally planned for the Appendices only appears in Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12). But this material is at least of dubious canonicity.

See Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), page 234, which assigns the marriage of Elrond to Celebrían to the year 2300 of the Third Age and later remarks:

The children [Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen, the offspring of Elrond] were three parts of the Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as the Elves, so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.

This seems to slightly expand on the account given in Appendix B, and we are told soon afterwards on the following page in Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12) that Elladan and Elrohir were born in 2349 of the Third Age and that Arwen was born in the same year.

But in Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings instead Elrond marries Celebrían in the year 109 of the Third Age, Elladan and Elrohir are born in 130, and Arwen is born in 241. This is a problem with Mithadan’s belief that the extra material in Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12) should be accepted on a level with the material published in Tolkien’s lifetime under his control, often this material does not agree with the material published in Tolkien’s lifetime under his control.

On page 257 of Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12) occurs in an earlier draft version of Appendix A (emphasis mine):

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they wedded with one of Mankind, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

This restatement of what would make the children of Elrond mortal is restated in the published Appendix A (emphasis mine):

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

Apparently in his first writing of this passage Tolkien was not particularly thinking of Elladan and Elrohir and only later, when rewriting it, does he make the choice depend on whether the children of Elrond choose to depart with their father.

The difficulty is that this apparently final decision of Tolkien that the immortality of Elladan and Elrohir depends on whether or not they depart with their father is undercut by Tolkien’s definite statement in letter 153 of The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien:

The end of his [Elrond’s] sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice and remain for a while.

That almost all of this information comes from supposed notesin the Appendices creates the further difficulty that Tolkien at some point, I can’t find where at the moment, expressed the idea that he was no longer much bothered by supposed discrepancies within the Appendices because the most unrealistic thing in his Appendices compared to comparable real-world chronicles from the real world is that the real-world chronicles contain more discrepancies and inconsistencies than his Appendices.