Taters to Taters

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Gwath

I believe both Barad-dur and Mt. Doom were located on Gorgoroth. If the plateau wasn't violent itself, it certainly contained great violence, being both an unstable, volcanically active area and the lair of a demonic supervillain who is arguably responsible for most of the violence that occurred in Middle-earth.

I like the geological justification for Gorgoroth, but as far as tying it directly to the elsewhere-occuring deeds of Sauron due to proximity to his fortress... That would be like choosing the Misty Mts for "Quick" due to the fact that the speedy Great Eagles happened to make nests in a couple spots in the midst of the range.

I don't like the idea of having too many tie-ins. To choose Gorgoroth it itself must be defined as violent rather than equating ->
Gorgoroth = Barad-Dur = Sauron = His armies = Violence

Originally Posted by Gwath

I would also argue that Beorn is considerably more violent than Eol on pretty much all levels. Higher kill count. Uses claws and fangs, rather than poison darts. Impales victims remains on front gate. Is essentially part wild animal. And I can't imagine that transformation being particularly peaceful either...

If we're going by kill count then why the heck support Beorn? Pelennor Fields dwarfs his kill count, and frankly everyone's kill count put together.

Plus, violence includes an aspect of attitude and potential. If a repeat murderer is locked in a cell and thus can no longer kill people, is he no longer violent? (Since he's not actively engaging in violence.) Obviously, the answer is no. Attitude and potential counts.

Thus with your example of comparing Beorn to Eol, while Eol did not spend a great deal of time killing things, there was a constant underlying threat of force in the captivity of his wife and son, not to mention his use of violence was, as Lottie said, so interestingly inappropriate and unpredictable. Similarly, Beorn may have had a higher "kill count" than Ungoliant, but surely given the opportunity she had the attitude to rack up higher numbers.

And as far as "claws and fangs" go, method of expression is unimportant. I mean honestly, is a kitten that plays pouncing games more violent than Gothmog due to the kitten using claws and teeth and Gothmog utilizing weapons? Preposterous! Violence is force, and that can come across in varied ways, and the tip of an arrow is an equally effective transfer of force compared to claws. The word isn't "wild" or "animal".

Beorn is just too funny and likable at other moments, I think.

[Gwathagor]

A predatory animal like a bear is, by its nature, thoroughly and essentially violent. Its entire existence revolves and depends on killing other creatures. It begins and ends in blood, and this was, at some level, a part of Beorn's identity.

Eol, on the other hand, only ended his life with violence. He was a resentful, manipulative being gone wrong, not a suppressed serial killer.